{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3621", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3621, "subject": "Quetzal On Urth? (allegory?)", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "2002-11-27T16:55:38+00:00", "last": "2002-11-27T17:36:03+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2002-11-27T16:55:38+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Quetzal On Urth? (allegory?)", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Allegory, typology, or symbolism? Let me explain...\n\nCharles said:\nWell, I don't see it that way, though I'll grant that this is a matter\nof interpretation. Quetzal identifies himself with the cobra in the\nsense that he's trying to lure A-man and Wo-man from the garden (the\nWhorl) up into his tree (Green) by doing everything possible to carry\nout the Plan of Pas. My interpretation differs from yours in that you\nsee Urth, rather than the Whorl, as \"the garden.\" Each interpretation's\nvalidity depends on the point of view. Yours is valid if Quetzal was on\nUrth, which I do not believe him to have been.\n\nCrush responds:\nI'm afraid I don't agree that your interpretation is feasible. Quetzal says\nthat the cobra lured A-man and Wo-man into his tree, BUT (at the time of\nLS3:1) they *had not yet climbed down*. This means that the cobra had\n*already* lured them into his tree. The next part of the story was when they\nclimbed down. Now Quetzal is engaging in allegory here, but I don't consider\nit very difficult to understand: Since A-man and Wo-man have already climbed\nthe \"tree\", the \"tree\" is the Whorl which took them off the Urth. Since\nA-man and Wo-man have yet to \"climb down,\" then \"climbing down\" is\ndisembarking to Green. If I could accept your interpretation, it would make\nmany things easier, but, alas, the interpretation does not follow the\nallegory.\n\nCharles said:\nAllusion *enhances* the work and provides the reader\nwith perhaps a greater depth of understanding, but if the reader MUST\nunderstand the allusions in order to understand the story, then the\nstory isn't really a story -- it's an allegory. That's not what the\nNS/LS/SS books are, though.\n\nCrush responds:\nYes and no. FOR EXAMPLE, Christians have always read the story of Abraham\nsacrificing Isaac as a deliberate picture (set up by God) of what he would\ndo when the Messiah came. That doesn't mean they don't believe Abraham saw\nit as being all about his own spiritual journey nor do they intend that\nGod's motives in the event had nothing to do His concern for Abraham\npersonally (i.e. that Abraham was a rat in a maze). This is not allegory,\nit's typology. But -- consistently in my experience -- people who read the\nstory of Abraham sacrificing Isaac as pure anecdote or as a fable with a\nmoral, come away saying, \"God's motives make no sense here\". That's a\nfeeling I can relate to when I read the Sun cycle.\n\nThrough my own **investigation**, I have realized that one of Wolfe's\ninterests in the LS/SS was to play with serpent imagery (especially flying\nserpent imagery) in myth and alchemy. I believe this was the *beginning* of\nhis working of the LS narrative..\n \"Look\", he said, \"Flying serpents in Herodotus, flying serpents\n in Mesoamerica, flying serpents in alchemy, flying serpents in\n the Bible. The serpent in the garden is a fallen angel, an angel\n is a seraphim which is a flying serpent. Typhon is a serpent too.\n Osirus was killed by Typhon-Set. Apollo had his Python. Don't\n forget the horned snakes in Herodotus, and Dionysus had a snake\n epiphany and was horned. Moses had a snake and was horned.\n And Moses is associate by some with Dionysus through Mt. Horeb.\n Moses and Alexander were called the two-horned ones. Hey! And\n there's an Indian story of King Midas where he grows horns instead\n of horse ears - and a tamarind tree is at the center of that story.\n Now lets take a look at that story of Midas and Silenus (Dionysus'\n teacher)...\"\n\nYou imagine the imagery was pasted over the story. My investigation has\nconvinced me that the story flowered FROM the imagery. He didn't even (as I\nmight have done) grow the story from a mere kernel of a myth story or image.\nBased on the imagery Wolfe is working with, there is an actual reason why\nWolfe left Quetzal's origination mysterious. I am continuously amazed at how\nelaborately the story is founded. But the NAMES are deliberate clues. After\nthe BotNS, Wolfe's readers are sufficiently warned that the words and names\nof his characters are carefully and deliberately chosen - that's an element\nof allegory. Wolfe should not be blamed if the reader says, \"There's\nsomething going on here but I don't' know what it is\", if the reader hasn't\nbothered to open the myriad of golden eggs Wolfe has left lying around.\n\nThe genius of Wolfe is that he wove all these images into a self-consistent\nnarrative with enough quirkiness to invite the reader to delve deeper. Like\nGwydion's poem in the Mabinogion (as interpreted by Graves in \"The White\nGoddess\"), the LS/SS is a puzzle inviting the reader to work it out in the\nsame way Graves did. Graves even has a chapter in his book called \"The\nSpiral Staircase\".\n\nThe names and words in the LS/SS are a map to help the reader put the\nka-jillion narrative clues into a perspective and understand how they relate\ntogether.\n\nNow to address a side issue....\n\nCharles said (and Blattid assented):\nBut as far as basing/dispensing theories on the \"Wolfe wouldn't do that\"\nargument -- I think this is extremely dangerous. Just this week, there\nwas an exchange in which Don Doggett stated, \"I cannot believe that\nWolfe would have his main character commit incest, knowingly or\nunknowingly, and especially without any good reason\" and outlined a\ntheory for why he didn't think Dorcas was Severian's grandmother. Marc\nAramani then replied, in what I thought was really good argument which\nsummarized the various sexual relationships in the NS books, that it was\nin fact essential to his interpretation that Dorcas be Severian's\ngrandmother. \"Wolfe wouldn't do that\" is simply a bad way to argue a point.\n\nActually, I have no interest in encouraging this sort of argument (I've\nnever used it). But don't make me go through the archives and uncover every\ninstance of it in the last few months (\"Wolfe is too orthodox for that\",\n\"Wolfe would never have a moral exemplar do such and such\"). I don't\nremember you guys making this argument but it *has been made* by posters\nwith more knowledge of Wolfe and greater posting history than mine.\n\nYet, at some point in every reader's life, he will read something and say,\n\"that doesn't sound like Shakespeare\". It's not *necessarily* wrong to say a\ntheory on tone or theme is not keeping with the writing history of a writer.\nBut, of course, whenever you assert that, there is at least one person who\nthought it was very much it sounded like that writer. So travelers beware.\n\n-- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-11-27T17:36:03+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Quetzal On Urth? (allegory?)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 10:55 AM 11/27/2002, you wrote:\nAllegory, typology, or symbolism? Let me explain...\n\nCharles said:\nWell, I don't see it that way, though I'll grant that this is a matter\nof interpretation. Quetzal identifies himself with the cobra in the\nsense that he's trying to lure A-man and Wo-man from the garden (the\nWhorl) up into his tree (Green) by doing everything possible to carry\nout the Plan of Pas. My interpretation differs from yours in that you\nsee Urth, rather than the Whorl, as \"the garden.\" Each interpretation's\nvalidity depends on the point of view. Yours is valid if Quetzal was on\nUrth, which I do not believe him to have been.\n\nCrush responds:\nI'm afraid I don't agree that your interpretation is feasible. Quetzal says\nthat the cobra lured A-man and Wo-man into his tree, BUT (at the time of\nLS3:1) they *had not yet climbed down*. This means that the cobra had\n*already* lured them into his tree. The next part of the story was when they\nclimbed down. Now Quetzal is engaging in allegory here, but I don't consider\nit very difficult to understand: Since A-man and Wo-man have already climbed\nthe \"tree\", the \"tree\" is the Whorl which took them off the Urth. Since\nA-man and Wo-man have yet to \"climb down,\" then \"climbing down\" is\ndisembarking to Green. If I could accept your interpretation, it would make\nmany things easier, but, alas, the interpretation does not follow the\nallegory." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nutria rejoinds:\n Makes sense, but I don't think its the only way to read it. You're \nright I think that serpents are all over these books, and deliberately so. \nBut surely Scylla is a serpent also? The title of the chapter is \"The \nSlaves of Scylla.\" Is that what Quetzal is? In that case, going with your \nallegory, it was Scylla who helped or had Typhon build the whorl. It is \nScylla's tree. In the chapter, Quetzal's own tree is of recent planting.\n I'm thinking that the notion that that the inhumi are slaves of \nScylla may open some new avenues of investigation....\n Try this: Scylla wanted the Whorl to deposit its people on Blue, \nwhere she ruled. Quetzal has his own plan, to get them to his own tree: \nGreen. On Blue, inhumi are slaves of Scylla, like everyone else. A return \nto Green, to Quetzal's tree, is \"the highroad to freedom.\" Freedom from \nwhat? From being a slave of Scylla?\n I'm just playing with possibilities here.\n\nNutria" } ] } ] }