{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3626", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3626, "subject": "FLF: Quadrumvirate", "messages": 6, "voices": 4, "first": "2002-11-29T06:22:39+00:00", "last": "2002-12-02T21:55:27+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-11-29T06:22:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FLF: Quadrumvirate", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is a great deal of humor in FLF, as in CASTLEVIEW, but what is to be\nmade of the last line of the book? That line is particularly disconcerting,\ngiven its antecedent in chapter 17. Sandy Duck had asked Serpentina to make\na prediction: \"what event of great importance to America do you foresee\nwithin the next ten years?\" After the ritual with the mirror, the witch said\nshe \"summoned the spirits of the unborn to reveal the future\", which was:\n\n \"The greatest event of the coming decade will be the quadrumvirate. Four\nleaders, unknown today, shall unite to take political, financial, artistic,\nand judicial power. They shall create a revolution of thought. Many who are\nnow rulers shall be imprisoned or exiled. Many who are now powerless shall\nrise to places of great authority. The rich shall be made poor, and the poor\nrich. Old crimes, long concealed, shall be made public, and their\nperpetrators given to the people as to a pride of lions. The four shall be\nhated and idolized, but their rule will not end within the period specified\nby my prediction. That is all I was told.\"\n\nAfter Barnes and his son enter the kitchen to see the transformed Stubb and\nCandy, the witch, unseen, announces his arrival from the parlor and says:\n\"The quadrumvirate is complete.\"\n\nThat choice of word can hardly be coincidental in the book's last line. The\nfour boarders and four powers. With a time machine.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-11-29T22:54:26+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) FLF: Quadrumvirate", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy wrote:\nThere is a great deal of humor in FLF, as in CASTLEVIEW, but what is to be\nmade of the last line of the book? That line is particularly disconcerting,\ngiven its antecedent in chapter 17. Sandy Duck had asked Serpentina to make\na prediction: \"what event of great importance to America do you foresee\nwithin the next ten years?\" After the ritual with the mirror, the witch said\nshe \"summoned the spirits of the unborn to reveal the future\", which was:\n\n \"The greatest event of the coming decade will be the quadrumvirate. Four\nleaders, unknown today, shall unite to take political, financial, artistic,\nand judicial power. They shall create a revolution of thought. Many who are\nnow rulers shall be imprisoned or exiled. Many who are now powerless shall\nrise to places of great authority. The rich shall be made poor, and the poor\nrich. Old crimes, long concealed, shall be made public, and their\nperpetrators given to the people as to a pride of lions. The four shall be\nhated and idolized, but their rule will not end within the period specified\nby my prediction. That is all I was told.\"\n\nAfter Barnes and his son enter the kitchen to see the transformed Stubb and\nCandy, the witch, unseen, announces his arrival from the parlor and says:\n\"The quadrumvirate is complete.\"\n\nThat choice of word can hardly be coincidental in the book's last line. The\nfour boarders and four powers. With a time machine." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right, there is a lot packed into that tiny epilogue.\n\n1. The nature of the house: what year is it in that final kitchen? If it\nis 1982, then Ben Free has not died yet! Talk about complicated\ntime-travel paradoxes. (Or is it really so complicated, given that we know\nthat Free's doctrine is to \"go along\" and repeat history?)\n\n2. The nature of the world of that house. Candy is wearing a shimmering\ndress, what's that all about? I remember 16 years ago one reader who was\nonline was really bugged by that dress -- it seemed to signify something,\nbut what was it? At one level it certainly reminds me of the Arthurian\nLady of the Lake. But with time-travel involved, that is, a sfnal\nexplanation for everything (even supernatural events become \"psionic\" or\nwhathaveyou), then it seems as though the trio has been travelling through\ntime and \"fixing\" things, just as the General had travelled past the 1950s\nto get tape recorders and other off-the-shelf wonders from later decades.\nOTOH, the trio might be limited in what they can accomplish in short time:\nas I understand it, the trio opted for the gizmo door on High Country and\nOzzie elected to go back by the B-17, in order to find his son and then try\nto find their way together through the gizmo door on the ground. Has it\nbeen a week, a month, or just a few days? In any case, while Candy's\nslimness might be due to simple amphetemines , Stubb's increased height\nis presumably more than inner-shoe lifters could provide . . . other than\nthe results of being alloyed (which might cover everything by itself),\nmaybe they have additional genetic therapy?\n\n3. But is that final house really part of the mundane world, or is it\n\"Oz,\" a bubble universe separate from the mundane world as Oz is separate\nfrom Kansas? That is, at the end of the first Oz book, the heroine Dorothy\ngets to go home, the semi-hero/semi-villain Oz is last seen in a balloon in\nthe sky (like Free/Whitten in High Country) and the four helper-heroes each\nget one of the four subject-kingdoms of Oz (I'm simplifying a bit, but bear\nwith), forming a sort of quadrumvirate. This quadrumvirate is a good thing\nfor the land of Oz (simplifying, but bear with), since each individual\nrecognized that he was lacking something and has been made complete. Being\nthe lords of the Land of Oz is different than being the Gang of Four. (But\nI agree the possibility that the four are remaking the external world is a\nfairly strong one.)\n\n4. Another side of FLF, it seems to me, is something like \"A Midsummer\nNight's Dream,\" where there are two couples who go through various\npermutations until they find the right combination. (Hmmm, there is also\nthe transformation angle!) Of the four, Ozzie Barnes (as wizard Oz) and\nthe witch (as Glinda/Wicked) seem like the \"upstairs\" characters, the\nShakespearean nobles, where Candy and Stubbs seem like the \"downstairs\"\ncharacters (hmmm, is Candy like \"Falstaff\" aside from her enormous size?).\nFrom the beginning, Stubbs wants to be with Candy; Ozzie wants to be with\nthe witch; Ozzie has sex with Candy and they do not become a couple (as if\nto prove the point that they are not the right couple). So the\n\"homecoming\" in the end is a bringing together of the four characters in\ntheir correct couples and new harmony.\n\n5. In what sense is the original Oz an externalization? That is,\nDorothy's friends are perhaps aspects of her own internal self that have\nbeen made literal and separate from herself. Might be shakey for Oz, but\nseems fitting for FLF in the reading that Free becomes the house and the\nfour living inside of the house become, in some sense or another, not the\nmaggots of a corpse (as the witch says of the notion) but the humors of a\nliving body: blood, phlegm, black bile, and yellow bile.\n\nIt is easy for me to see Candy as sluggish \"phlegm,\" and maybe the witch as\nmelancholic \"black bile\" for her wardrobe. Ozzie, in addition to being Oz\nand Popeye, is a satyr, and it is not far from that to sanguinary \"blood,\"\nleaving choleric \"yellow bile\" to detective Stubbs.\n\nTime to point out that Free is looking for a better world that he =doesn't=\nfind in the Old Frontier: he, too, is looking for something, but it seems\nto be something more than just bringing \"little house on the prairie\"\nvalues into the inner city (i.e., bringing the best of the frontier life\nback to homestead the urban jungle). With this in mind, it seems as though\nhis quest is completed by having the four living in his house, which has\nbecome him (to a greater or lesser degree).\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2002-11-30T07:06:56+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) FLF: Quadrumvirate", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Roy wrote:\nThere is a great deal of humor in FLF, as in CASTLEVIEW, but what is to be\nmade of the last line of the book? That line is particularly disconcerting," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " \"The greatest event of the coming decade will be the quadrumvirate. Four\nleaders, unknown today, shall unite to take political, financial, artistic,\nand judicial power. They shall create a revolution of thought. Many who are\nnow rulers shall be imprisoned or exiled. Many who are now powerless shall\nrise to places of great authority. The rich shall be made poor, and the poor\nrich. Old crimes, long concealed, shall be made public, and their\nperpetrators given to the people as to a pride of lions. The four shall be\nhated and idolized, but their rule will not end within the period specified\nby my prediction. That is all I was told.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This sounds an awful lot like the Magnificat (or one of the other\nprophetic poems in the same genre: Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc.). There's\ndefinitely a sense in FLF that America (the world?) has gone wrong. And\nthese four have the power to change things.\n\nSee also Serpentina's speech about why we do not really want or deserve\nlongevity, power, etc. But how to fit that with her ultimate acceptance\nof the power of the time machine and her throne as one of the\nquadumvirate? Will these four do any better than the rogues they replace?\n\nAnd, mantis, I like the Midsummer Night's Dream connection! Here's\nanother possible one for you list: The Four Thrones of Narnia, occupied\nby two Sons of Adam and two Daughters of Eve who walk through a magical\ndoor which does something weird to time and changes them from children to\nadults and back again.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-11-30T16:04:09+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) FLF: Quadrumvirate", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, 29 Nov 2002 00:22:39 -0600 \"Roy C. Lackey\" wrote:\nThere is a great deal of humor in FLF, as in\nCASTLEVIEW, but what is to be\nmade of the last line of the book?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[snip]\n\nI always took it for granted that the four would become the quadrumvirate of\nthe prediction who, having improved themselves by merging with their past\nselves, would take power and overthrow the forces of Big Government who had\ndestroyed Free's house, killed Free and set out to crush the dreams of the\nfour. As you say, it can hardly be a coincidence that Madame Serpentina uses\nthe same word both times; and the book as a whole seems to lead up to this\nconclusion. \n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-12-02T21:12:43+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) FLF: Quadrumvirate", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 11/30/02 1:06 AM, Michael Straight at straight at email.unc.edu wrote:\nAnd, mantis, I like the Midsummer Night's Dream connection! Here's\nanother possible one for you list: The Four Thrones of Narnia, occupied\nby two Sons of Adam and two Daughters of Eve who walk through a magical\ndoor which does something weird to time and changes them from children to\nadults and back again." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Going to Narnia, through whatever door, doesn't magically change children\ninto adults. In TLtWatW, the children spend many years in Narnia and grow\nto adulthood naturally, though when they return to Earth they become\nchildren again. When they return to Narnia in later books they do not\nreturn to their adult state but remain children (perhaps inconsistently), as\ndo all other children who go to Narnia.\n\nOn an off-topic but Narnia-related note, does anyone know where I can find\nPullman's anti-Lewis statements, on- or off-line? (I was reminded of this\nby alga's comments anent Susan.)\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2002-12-02T21:55:27+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) FLF: Quadrumvirate", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Mon, 2 Dec 2002, Adam Stephanides wrote:\nAnd, mantis, I like the Midsummer Night's Dream connection! Here's\nanother possible one for you list: The Four Thrones of Narnia, occupied\nby two Sons of Adam and two Daughters of Eve who walk through a magical\ndoor which does something weird to time and changes them from children to\nadults and back again." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Going to Narnia, through whatever door, doesn't magically change children\ninto adults." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, if yer gonna be nitpicky, just make it \"two males and two females go\nthrough a magic door and take their thrones as the four rulers of the\nland.\" (And yes, Free's time machine might as well be magic.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In TLtWatW, the children spend many years in Narnia and grow\nto adulthood naturally, though when they return to Earth they become\nchildren again. When they return to Narnia in later books they do not\nreturn to their adult state but remain children (perhaps inconsistently), as\ndo all other children who go to Narnia." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not inconsistently -- they just don't stay long enough in any of the other\nbooks to grow into adults.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] } ] }