{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3637", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3637, "subject": "probable distance from Urth to Bleen", "messages": 13, "voices": 5, "first": "2002-12-02T18:17:08+00:00", "last": "2002-12-03T19:45:55+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-12-02T18:17:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) probable distance from Urth to Bleen", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Blattid wrote:\nWhile I appreciate Don's suggestion that Wolfe might have\nbuilt a deliberate ambiguity into the text, it seems to me\nthat the Blue = Ushas \"reading\" introduces all sorts of\nproblems and complexities which simply disappear if we\naccept the more straightforward idea that the Bleen system\nlies a few dozen lightyears (or however far the Whorl might\nreasonably travel in 1000/300 years) away from the Urth\nsystem." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, oh! In 1997 I worked out the distance as 930 light years, but that was\nwithout figuring a hundred years in parking orbit. If we factor that in,\nso the journey is only around 230 years, then the time dilation goes up to\n4.11:1, suggesting the velocity is 0.97 c, and the distance is more like\n850 light years.\n\n OBJECTIVE SUBJECTIVE\nLEG RATE TIME TIME DISTANCE\nBoost 0.1 g 10 years 8 years 0.5 light years\nGlide 0 g 880 years 214 years 853.6 light years\nBoost 0.1 g 10 years 8 years 0.5 light years\n===\nTOTAL 900 years 230 years 854.6 light years\n\n(The rates for the boost legs are simple speculation. It doesn't seem like\nthe boost could be as high as 1 g, but it could be much lower than 0.1 g)\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-12-02T18:28:23+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) probable distance from Urth to Bleen", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mantis reminds me of this ...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " OBJECTIVE SUBJECTIVE\nLEG RATE TIME TIME DISTANCE\nBoost 0.1 g 10 years 8 years 0.5 light years\nGlide 0 g 880 years 214 years 853.6 light years\nBoost 0.1 g 10 years 8 years 0.5 light years\n===\nTOTAL 900 years 230 years 854.6 light years\n\n(The rates for the boost legs are simple speculation. It \ndoesn't seem like the boost could be as high as 1 g, but it \ncould be much lower than 0.1 g)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "... I tend to think that the _Whorl_ most likely has a boost of\n<< 1 G -- probably .01G or so. Reasoning: the Cargo know enough\nabout the skew of gravity that they can discuss, in fairly learned\nterms, the way it affects the behavior of GEVs going too fast in\nan antispinward direction. If the ship decelerated at any \nappreciable fraction of G, then floater drivers -- at least those\nwho occasionally drive fast -- would notice that the \"central\"\ndirection for getting into a plow had shifted. O'course, if that\nhappened nearly a century ago, they _could_ all have forgotten it\nby Silk's time ... More generally, though, I suspect people would\nremember (certainly the chems would) a time when things fell a bit\ndifferently..." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-12-02T18:46:58+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) probable distance from Urth to Bleen", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Blattid wants new numbers. Okay! A 10:1 time dilation suggests somewhere\nbetween .98 c and .99 c, I reckon.\n\n OBJECTIVE SUBJECTIVE\nLEG RATE TIME TIME DISTANCE\nBoost 0.01 g 100 years 80 years 0.5 light years\nGlide 0 g 700 years 70 years 686.0 light years\nBoost 0.01 g 100 years 80 years 0.5 light years\n===\nTOTAL 900 years 230 years 687.0 light years" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "... I tend to think that the _Whorl_ most likely has a boost of\n<< 1 G -- probably .01G or so. Reasoning: the Cargo know enough\nabout the skew of gravity that they can discuss, in fairly learned\nterms, the way it affects the behavior of GEVs going too fast in\nan antispinward direction. If the ship decelerated at any\nappreciable fraction of G, then floater drivers -- at least those\nwho occasionally drive fast -- would notice that the \"central\"\ndirection for getting into a plow had shifted. O'course, if that\nhappened nearly a century ago, they _could_ all have forgotten it\nby Silk's time ... More generally, though, I suspect people would\nremember (certainly the chems would) a time when things fell a bit\ndifferently..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-12-02T19:09:13+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) probable distance from Urth to Bleen", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well ... that's still rather more than the couple of dozen LY\nI thought of ... it seems then that Urth's red sun probably\nis _not_ particualrly visible from the Bleen system." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Michael Andre-Driussi [mailto:mantis at siriusfiction.com] \nSent: Monday, December 02, 2002 10:47 AM\nTo: urth at urth.net\nSubject: RE: (urth) probable distance from Urth to Bleen\n\n\nBlattid wants new numbers. Okay! A 10:1 time dilation \nsuggests somewhere between .98 c and .99 c, I reckon.\n\n OBJECTIVE SUBJECTIVE\nLEG RATE TIME TIME DISTANCE\nBoost 0.01 g 100 years 80 years 0.5 light years\nGlide 0 g 700 years 70 years 686.0 light years\nBoost 0.01 g 100 years 80 years 0.5 light years\n===\nTOTAL 900 years 230 years 687.0 light years" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "... I tend to think that the _Whorl_ most likely has a boost \nof << 1 G \n-- probably .01G or so. Reasoning: the Cargo know enough \nabout the skew \nof gravity that they can discuss, in fairly learned terms, \nthe way it \naffects the behavior of GEVs going too fast in an antispinward \ndirection. If the ship decelerated at any appreciable fraction of G, \nthen floater drivers -- at least those who occasionally \ndrive fast -- \nwould notice that the \"central\" direction for getting into a \nplow had \nshifted. O'course, if that happened nearly a century ago, \nthey _could_ \nall have forgotten it by Silk's time ... More generally, though, I \nsuspect people would remember (certainly the chems would) a \ntime when \nthings fell a bit differently..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "=mantis=\n\n\n\n-- \nhttp://www.urth.net/ To unsubscribe: send > \"unsubscribe\" to \nurth-request at urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2002-12-02T20:19:19+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) probable distance from Urth to Bleen", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nice caluculations Mantis, however if one insists that Silk's Time coexists\nwith Severian's Time then these numbers won't do. Wolfe puts Severian's time\n1000 to 2000 years after Typhon's.\n\nJust nit-picking,\n\nCrush\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Michael Andre-Driussi [mailto:mantis at siriusfiction.com]\nSent: Monday, December 02, 2002 12:47 PM\nTo: urth at urth.net\nSubject: RE: (urth) probable distance from Urth to Bleen\n\nBlattid wants new numbers. Okay! A 10:1 time dilation suggests somewhere\nbetween .98 c and .99 c, I reckon.\n\n OBJECTIVE SUBJECTIVE\nLEG RATE TIME TIME DISTANCE\nBoost 0.01 g 100 years 80 years 0.5 light years\nGlide 0 g 700 years 70 years 686.0 light years\nBoost 0.01 g 100 years 80 years 0.5 light years\n===\nTOTAL 900 years 230 years 687.0 light years" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "... I tend to think that the _Whorl_ most likely has a boost of\n<< 1 G -- probably .01G or so. Reasoning: the Cargo know enough\nabout the skew of gravity that they can discuss, in fairly learned\nterms, the way it affects the behavior of GEVs going too fast in\nan antispinward direction. If the ship decelerated at any\nappreciable fraction of G, then floater drivers -- at least those\nwho occasionally drive fast -- would notice that the \"central\"\ndirection for getting into a plow had shifted. O'course, if that\nhappened nearly a century ago, they _could_ all have forgotten it\nby Silk's time ... More generally, though, I suspect people would\nremember (certainly the chems would) a time when things fell a bit\ndifferently..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "=mantis=" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-12-02T20:59:53+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) probable distance from Urth to Bleen", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Crush wrote:\nNice caluculations Mantis, however if one insists that Silk's Time coexists\nwith Severian's Time then these numbers won't do. Wolfe puts Severian's time\n1000 to 2000 years after Typhon's.\n\nJust nit-picking," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmmm. The text is pretty clear that the Objective Time has been 1000 years\n(LS3, ch 6, p. 242) and the Subjective Time has been 332 years (date on\nletters).\n\nIf we assume that the Whorl has been in a parking orbit for 100 years (as\nper Pas's time (LS2, ch 9, p. 235), then those 100 years are taken out of\nthe equation since, by definition, they pass in real time. That is to say,\nObjective Time for the voyage is 900 years and Subjective Time is 230.\n\nThe time between the reign of Ymar and that of Severian is said to be a\nchiliad. So the Whorl arrived at the Bleen system about 30 years before\nAutarch Maruthas closed the roads of the Commonwealth.\n\nOr perhaps I'm missing your point?\n\nThe A model (.97 c):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " OBJECTIVE SUBJECTIVE\nLEG RATE TIME TIME DISTANCE\nBoost 0.1 g 10 years 8 years 0.5 light years\nGlide 0 g 880 years 214 years 853.6 light years\nBoost 0.1 g 10 years 8 years 0.5 light years\n===\nTOTAL 900 years 230 years 854.6 light years" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The B model (.98 c):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " OBJECTIVE SUBJECTIVE\nLEG RATE TIME TIME DISTANCE\nBoost 0.01 g 100 years 80 years 0.5 light years\nGlide 0 g 700 years 70 years 686.0 light years\nBoost 0.01 g 100 years 80 years 0.5 light years\n===\nTOTAL 900 years 230 years 687.0 light years" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-12-02T22:20:49+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) probable distance from Urth to Bleen", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Michael Andre-Driussi wrote:\nCrush wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Nice caluculations Mantis, however if one insists that Silk's Time\ncoexists\nwith Severian's Time then these numbers won't do. Wolfe puts Severian's\ntime\n1000 to 2000 years after Typhon's.\n\nJust nit-picking," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hmmm. The text is pretty clear that the Objective Time has been 1000\nyears\n(LS3, ch 6, p. 242) and the Subjective Time has been 332 years (date on\nletters)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd like to pick a nit too. I think you mean Urth time and Whorl\ntime. According to the theory of relativity that you're basing your\ncalculations on, they're equally objective (or subjective). Otherwise,\nthanks for doing the calculations! I think what we learn from them\nis the order of magnitude: the Short Sun is probably some hundreds\nof light-years from Urth, and probably toward the higher end of that\nrange.\n...\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-12-02T22:58:32+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) probable distance from Urth to Bleen", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jerry Friedman quoted me and wrote:\nHmmm. The text is pretty clear that the Objective Time has been 1000\nyears\n(LS3, ch 6, p. 242) and the Subjective Time has been 332 years (date on\nletters)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'd like to pick a nit too. I think you mean Urth time and Whorl\ntime. According to the theory of relativity that you're basing your\ncalculations on, they're equally objective (or subjective). Otherwise,\nthanks for doing the calculations! I think what we learn from them\nis the order of magnitude: the Short Sun is probably some hundreds\nof light-years from Urth, and probably toward the higher end of that\nrange." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Um, no, Jerry . . . when the Whorl is at rest, the Whorl people experience\ntime at the same flow as people on Urth or Blue or Green, but at near-light\nspeeds subjective time (the passage of time experienced by the crew) is\ncompressed compared to the objective time of the rest of the universe (or\ntechnically \"any other location that is not accelerated to NAFAL\nvelocities,\" which happens to encompass most of the universe). This is the\nbasis of the famous \"twin paradox.\" (I'm not coining the use of\n\"objective\" and \"subjective\" here: that is how it is done.) Look into it,\nif you like, since it is fascinating! Or just take my word for it.\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-12-02T23:13:12+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) probable distance from Urth to Bleen", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Um, no, Jerry . . . when the Whorl is at rest, the Whorl \npeople experience time at the same flow as people on Urth or \nBlue or Green, but at near-light speeds subjective time (the \npassage of time experienced by the crew) is compressed \ncompared to the objective time of the rest of the universe \n(or technically \"any other location that is not accelerated \nto NAFAL velocities,\" which happens to encompass most of the \nuniverse). This is the basis of the famous \"twin paradox.\" \n(I'm not coining the use of \"objective\" and \"subjective\" \nhere: that is how it is done.) Look into it, if you like, \nsince it is fascinating! Or just take my word for it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Um, no, Mantis ... in a world that obeys Einstein's rules, \n\"time\" is equally [ob|sub]jective in any inertial reference\nframe; more specifically, \"time\" on the Whorl cruising at\nNAFAL velocities is no more and no less objective than \"time\" \non the surface of Urth. This is a consequence of \"time\" not \nbeing an independent entity in such a world; it is one \ndimension of a four-or-more-dimensional manifold which we \n(more) properly refer to as \"spacetime.\"\n\nThe \"objective time\"/\"subjective time\" terminology you use\ncomes, not from relativistic physics, but from SF writers \nwho play with these concepts in their novels but either \ndo not comprehend what I oversimplify in the previous\nparagraph, or else assume (and I think this quite likely)\nthat most \"users\" of NAFAL ships would think this way, the\nnon-absolute nature of spacetime in an Einsteinian universe\nbeing kind of difficult to wrap one's head around. (I do\nnot claim to have my head all the way around it by any\nmeans!) " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-12-03T00:26:41+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) probable distance from Urth to Bleen", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nUm, no, Jerry . . . when the Whorl is at rest, the Whorl \npeople experience time at the same flow as people on Urth or \nBlue or Green, but at near-light speeds subjective time (the \npassage of time experienced by the crew) is compressed \ncompared to the objective time of the rest of the universe \n(or technically \"any other location that is not accelerated \nto NAFAL velocities,\" which happens to encompass most of the \nuniverse)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This \"technically\" comment is more nearly correct than your\n\"subjective\" and \"objective\" comments. You're forgetting the\nexpansion of the universe, though. To be nit-pickingly correct,\na great deal of the matter in the universe *is* moving at\nrelativistic velocities in our reference frame. So your \"any\nother location\" happens to encompass our galaxy, indeed our\nlocal supercluster and much more, but not the whole universe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is the basis of the famous \"twin paradox.\" \n(I'm not coining the use of \"objective\" and \"subjective\" \nhere: that is how it is done.) Look into it, if you like, \nsince it is fascinating! Or just take my word for it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Um, no, Mantis ... in a world that obeys Einstein's rules, \n\"time\" is equally [ob|sub]jective in any inertial reference\nframe; more specifically, \"time\" on the Whorl cruising at\nNAFAL velocities is no more and no less objective than \"time\" \non the surface of Urth. This is a consequence of \"time\" not \nbeing an independent entity in such a world; it is one \ndimension of a four-or-more-dimensional manifold which we \n(more) properly refer to as \"spacetime.\"\n\nThe \"objective time\"/\"subjective time\" terminology you use\ncomes, not from relativistic physics, but from SF writers \nwho play with these concepts in their novels but either \ndo not comprehend what I oversimplify in the previous\nparagraph, or else assume (and I think this quite likely)\nthat most \"users\" of NAFAL ships would think this way, the\nnon-absolute nature of spacetime in an Einsteinian universe\nbeing kind of difficult to wrap one's head around. (I do\nnot claim to have my head all the way around it by any\nmeans!) " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks, Blattid. I probably shouldn't mention that I have a\nPh. D. in physics, since then people might stop arguing with me\nabout physics, and as my students could tell you, I do make\nmistakes.\n\nThere's an interesting and comprehensible discussion of the twin\nparadox at . It contains the comment,\n'Relativity here pays the price of permissiveness. It says to us,\n\"Pick whichever frame you like to describe your results, or use\nspacetime diagrams and don't choose a reference frame at all.\nThey're all equivalent, I don't mind.\" No wonder that one\nexplanation ends up looking like three or four.'\n\nAnd nothing saying that one reference frame is subjective and\nanother is objective.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-12-03T01:04:40+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) probable distance from Urth to Bleen", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jerry Friedman wrote..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Um, no, Jerry . . . when the Whorl is at rest, the Whorl\n[etc.]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No I didn't!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thanks, Blattid. I probably shouldn't mention that I have a \nPh. D. in physics, since then people might stop arguing with \nme about physics, and as my students could tell you, I do \nmake mistakes." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gawrsh ... a real physicist. That's what we need around here.\nMe, I can just about wade in Meissner, Thorne, & Wheeler without\ngetting my feet wet, I gaze at the curly-symbols in admiration\nand wish I had gone beyond Diff E." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There's an interesting and comprehensible discussion of the \ntwin paradox at . " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Neat. Looks like I made a bit of a blodge in my last reply\nto Mantis ... kind of ignored the whole question of accelerating\nreference frames. Ooohhh well. \n\n--A Mildly Chastened Blattid" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-12-03T09:56:44+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) probable distance from Urth to Bleen", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 02/12/2002 20:19:19 James Wynn wrote:\nNice caluculations Mantis, however if one insists that Silk's Time\ncoexists\nwith Severian's Time then these numbers won't do. Wolfe puts Severian's\ntime\n1000 to 2000 years after Typhon's." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ummmm...... And the quotes that establish this are?\n\nSomewhere amongst the papers on my desks are the notes I took on last\nreading regarding time and chronology. I'll try and dig them out.\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2002-12-03T19:45:55+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) probable distance from Urth to Bleen", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush originally wrote" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nice caluculations Mantis, however if one insists that Silk's Time\ncoexists\nwith Severian's Time then these numbers won't do. Wolfe puts Severian's\ntime\n1000 to 2000 years after Typhon's." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Matthew Malthouse queried:\nUmmmm...... And the quotes that establish this are?\n\n\nCrush responds:\nSorry, I keep assuming everyone knows more about this stuff than I do. This\ncame from the question and answer period between this list and Wolfe way\nback when...\n\nQ. About how far, really, is the New Sun series set in our future (or the\nfuture of the previous universe)? How much time elapses between Typhon and\nSeverian?\n\nA. That is never specified in the books. My offhand guess is between 1000\nand 2000 years. I would have to reread the books with care to perhaps trim\nthe estimate up a little bit.\n\nHere is a link to this text:\nhttp://www.ansible.demon.co.uk/cc/cc77.html" } ] } ] }