{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3642", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3642, "subject": "FLF: timeline problem", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "2002-12-03T07:00:15+00:00", "last": "2002-12-03T13:41:58+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-12-03T07:00:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FLF: timeline problem", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One of the problems with making a personal timeline for Free (that is, one\nmade from his viewpoint), is Wolfe's first entry in the chronology at the\nend of the book. It states that Free, age 60 but looking younger than that,\njoined the Lewis & Clark Expedition in 1803. However, the version of Free in\nthe cockpit conversation told the four boarders that he was unsure of his\nexact age then, but that he was somewhere between 60 and 70. The problem is\nthat he also told them that when he (when he was younger, as Whitten) came\nto their time (Nov. 1982), Free wasn't there and that \"I think that he must\nhave gone to some other time, although I have no idea what that time might\nbe. To the Lewis and Clark expedition, I hope.\" How can that\nsixty-something-year-old version of Free (who looked his age; when they\nfirst saw him in the pilot's chair it was the \"familiar, bearded face of Ben\nFree\" they saw) not know what he had done when he was 60?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-12-03T13:41:58+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) FLF: timeline problem", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy wrote:\nOne of the problems with making a personal timeline for Free (that is, one\nmade from his viewpoint), is Wolfe's first entry in the chronology at the\nend of the book. It states that Free, age 60 but looking younger than that,\njoined the Lewis & Clark Expedition in 1803. However, the version of Free in\nthe cockpit conversation told the four boarders that he was unsure of his\nexact age then, but that he was somewhere between 60 and 70. The problem is\nthat he also told them that when he (when he was younger, as Whitten) came\nto their time (Nov. 1982), Free wasn't there and that \"I think that he must\nhave gone to some other time, although I have no idea what that time might\nbe. To the Lewis and Clark expedition, I hope.\" How can that\nsixty-something-year-old version of Free (who looked his age; when they\nfirst saw him in the pilot's chair it was the \"familiar, bearded face of Ben\nFree\" they saw) not know what he had done when he was 60?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is another piece of what I was writing about before, where I wondered\nhow Whitten could be vague about his own desertion:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On to the tricky business of having three Whittens in 1983:\n\nMy question centers around the Whitten they talk to in High Country. At\nfirst I thought that his presence would cause the second disappearance of\n\"the man in the duffle coat\" (whose first disappearance when Free appeared\ncaused the time-patrol crisis), but Whitten says that isn't so, that\nduffle-coat deserted. (But in the timeline Wolfe wrote, duffle-coat\ndisappears a second time about the time that the four interview Whitten at\nHigh Country; duffle-coat doesn't desert until two days later.) I've said\nthat there are, say, seven years of subjective time between duffle-coat\nWhitten and High Country interview Whitten. So, following the logic,\nduffle-coat Whitten spent seven years optimizing the scenario and ended up\nby arriving at High Country to do the interview.\n\nBut then High Country interview (HCI) Whitten says that he hopes that when\nduffle-coat Whitten deserted (wouldn't that be \"will desert\"?) he went to\n\"a better time.\"\n\nSo who is HCI Whitten? Is he a bubble-persona who is about to be loped off\nin a time-loop implosion? Or is he Free, fresh from the frontier for this\none job in 1983, then back to the 19th century frontier until he leaves it\nfor good in 1819? But if he is fresh from the frontier, then why the\nambiguity over where duffle-coat went/will go? (I start to wonder if HCI\nWhitten is the Whitten who followed orders the orginial orders and stayed\nat High Country as long as possible.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But I think that in the example Roy is looking at, it \"resolves\" as\n\n1982 -- Ben Free's last trip to frontier (tentatively October 1982 to 1803)\n\n1983 -- Ben Free returns to the 1980s (Jan 14) from 1806? (end of\nexpedition) or 1819?, with cataracts and all.\n\nThat is a diagram of what Whitten seems to be saying, at least. It may not\nbe accurate to the overall reality, though. That High Country interview\nWhitten is unsure about his own age would seem to be a pointer to more time\ntravelling activity, but his age-appropriate appearance (to the four, at\nleast) suggests that he has not been further \"alloyed\" (makes sense if his\ntrips have been in the past, in the 19th century, visiting time before he\nwas born) during these trips.\n\nThe Free who joined Lewis & Clark was not only alloyed (the 1942 episode),\nhe was also a citizen of the 20th century, so to the people of the early\n19th century his health might seem miraculous.\n\nWhitten seems to be saying that the trips for Free came in this order:\n\n1983 -- Whitten (age 53?) deserts, becomes Ben Free.\n\n1807-1818 -- Ben Free lives in the frontier (ageing 7 years in 11 years?),\nwith vacations in 1979-1982.\n\n1983 -- Ben Free/Whitten interviewed in High Country by the four?\n\n1803 -- Ben Free \"aged 60 but looks younger\" joins the Lewis & Clark\nexpedition (1804-1806).\n\n1806 -- At the end of the expedition (all in realtime, so age = age+3),\nFree travels to 1819.\n\n1819 -- Free gathers up his treasures and leaves for 1983.\n\n1983 -- Free arrives/Whitten disappears (another alloying for Free?)\n\nWhereas, because of that \"aged 60\" deal (in the first entry of Wolfe's\ntimeline), we had assumed that the L&C expedition came sooner. Hence, the\nproblem.\n\nOTOH the benefit of this one is that it suggests where the several years of\nrealtime living separating duffle-coat from High Country interview\nWhitten/Free might be: that 1807-1818 period. This causes problems: what\nwould be the trigger for Whitten to come to High Country for the interview\n. . . ? Aside from the memory of \"that's the way it happened,\" which might\ncover all.\n\n=mantis=" } ] } ] }