{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3643", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3643, "subject": "finally - a mechanism", "messages": 5, "voices": 4, "first": "2002-12-03T14:22:55+00:00", "last": "2002-12-03T23:11:37+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "maa32", "address": "maa32 at dana.ucc.nau.edu" }, "date": "2002-12-03T14:22:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) finally - a mechanism", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here is a mechanism that we may want to look at for time travel:\n\nRemember that when Fava and Inclito's mother tell their stories, the narrator \nhas the ability to enter their story. In other words, he can alter events \nthat he hears about and use his \"power\" to enter the story. He actually \nappears in Inclito's mother's story as a figure from her past, while he \nchanges Fava's story. I argue that his astral travel can be based off of \nsomething that he hears about - and that one of Typhon's big concerns when he \nscanned himself into mainframe was the conciliator, so that when Silk's spirit \nis reunited with his body from Pig at the very end of the flashback scenes of \nreturn to the whorl, it brings with it Pas' preoccupation with the figure of \nthe Conciliator - and it also programs him with Typhon's obsession to meet and \npossibly influence the conciliator, sending Silk's spirit across time to find \nthat man at his true birth - his baptism in the river. If you want to argue \nthat Severian was not dead at the exact first time that Silk appears, you have \nto factor in the very significant drowning in Gyoll that must be taking place \nEXACTLY as Silk appears in that time - the true birth (or death) of the \nSeverian we know - and therefore the logical focal point for his \nvivimancer-hood.\n\nThere are several other options: that when the vanished people made Horn \nundergo the cleansing of the sewer, they were telling the cultural story of \nSeverian : a man cleansed the detritus from this sewer of Urth and allowed a \ncleansing flush - which Silk could later use to travel to Urth and influence \nthe story of that cultural, mythological icon - there are whole sections in \nthe book about the formation of myth, etc. SILK HAS THE POWER TO INFLUENCE \nOTHER PEOPLE'S STORIES - AND THIS IS WHY LONG SUN IS ACCURATE - AND THIS IS \nWHY HE CAN SHOW UP AT AN IMPORTANT TIME FOR SEVERIAN IN THE PAST. He knows the \nimportant features of the tale of the conciliator - either through mainframe, \nthrough the ceremony of cleansing the sewers, or perhaps Rigolio has been \nimprinted with the task of killing the conciliator if he finds him. I'll look \nagain.\n\nMarc Aramini" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-12-03T17:11:01+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) finally - a mechanism", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marc writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Remember that when Fava and Inclito's mother tell their \nstories, the narrator has the ability to enter their story.\nIn other words, he can alter events that he hears about\nand use his \"power\" to enter the story. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe that this forces us to grant as a \"least hypothesis\"\nthat the Narr's astral travel ability includes the ability to \ntravel in time to a space-_and-time_ location* where at least \none member of the travelling party has been before. (I perceive\nfairly strong evidence that he has such limits in the \"place\"\ndimensions; _not_ to limit \"time\" similarly would require an \nadditional hypothetical.)\n\n-----\n* Actually, I find myself increasingly nervous about the \n terminology for this whole thing because of the discussion \n of relativity going on in parallel, but that's a whole \n nother kettle of fish ...\n-----\n\nGiven this, if you can establish that someone in the Rigoglio \ngroup has been in Nessus _at the time of Severian's childhood_, \nwe will have a plausible mechanism.\n\nHowever, the rest of your post does _not_ establish this ...\nor even try to." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He actually appears in Inclito's mother's story as a figure\nfrom her past, while he changes Fava's story. I argue that\nhis astral travel can be based off of something that he\nhears about " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "An unnecessary hypothesis in both cases, since both Fava \nand Inclito's mother were present at the placetimes in \nquestion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- and that one of Typhon's big concerns when he scanned\nhimself into mainframe was the conciliator, so that when\nSilk's spirit is reunited with his body from Pig at the\nvery end of the flashback scenes of return to the whorl,\nit brings with it Pas' preoccupation with the figure of \nthe Conciliator " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "... what this does, it seems to me, is establish that the\nNarrator can travel to loci where-when Typhon had been, at\nleast prior to his scanning-into-Mainframe, and thus adds\nweight to the idea that if time travel were involved in the\nNarr's trips to Urth it should bring him to the time of\nthe Tyrant, not the end of the Autarchial era. In other words,\nyour evidence, though good, so far seems to indicate that\nthe trips to Urth do _not_ involve travelling along the\n\"time\" dimension but take place in \"simultaneity\" with the\nback-on-Blue storyline." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- and it also programs him with Typhon's obsession to meet\nand possibly influence the conciliator, sending Silk's spirit \nacross time to find that man at his true birth - his baptism\nin the river. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Certainly an interesting idea. Only ... Where would Typhon have \nheard of Severian's \"baptism\"/resurrection?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If you want to argue that Severian was not dead at the exact\nfirst time that Silk appears, you have to factor in the very\nsignificant drowning in Gyoll that must be taking place \nEXACTLY as Silk appears in that time " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Certainly it appears that the group's first arrival in Nessus\ntakes place at _approximately_ the time of the drowning; \n\"EXACTLY\" would take some serious establishing. I accept it\nas likely, though; it seems to suit the situation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- the true birth (or death) of the Severian we know - and\ntherefore the logical focal point for his vivimancer-hood." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay.\n\nNow. Why would Severian summon this Narrator he's never heard\nof? This only leads to further complications.\n\n(Actually, I'm quite interested in this idea as far as it \ngoes; Severian-as-vivimancer seems to suit Wolfe's \"hiding in\nplain sight\" tactics. But it doesn't require time travel or \nBlue = Ushas to work.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There are several other options: that when the vanished \npeople made Horn undergo the cleansing of the sewer," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have kind of wondered about that. Has anyone come up with\nany reason _why_ the VP wanted that sewer cleaned? Did they\ndo it just to give him a sword? Seems kind of unlikely." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "they were telling the cultural story of Severian : a man\ncleansed the detritus from this sewer of Urth and allowed\na cleansing flush " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Granting a sort of amusing parallel here, which Wolfe _may_\nhave intended, from there to \"Blue = Urth\" seems quite a\nleap." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- which Silk could later use to travel to Urth and influence \nthe story of that cultural, mythological icon - there are \nwhole sections in the book about the formation of myth, etc. \nSILK HAS THE POWER TO INFLUENCE OTHER PEOPLE'S STORIES - AND\nTHIS IS WHY LONG SUN IS ACCURATE - AND THIS IS WHY HE CAN\nSHOW UP AT AN IMPORTANT TIME FOR SEVERIAN IN THE PAST." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You don't need to shout, you know.\n\n1) The Narrator's ability to \"influence other people's stories\"\n does _not_ automagically make LS (which Horn would have \n written before the Narrator was formed from bits of Silk, Horn, \n and Typhon (and, by some folks' hypothesis, Severian also).\n2) His ability to \"influence other people's stories\" also does \n not relieve you of the necessity to show why, when in every\n identifiable case of astral \"time\" travel the Narrator winds\n up at a \"time\" when someone in the party has previously been\n present, in this one case he does not." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He knows the important features of the tale of the conciliator\n- either through mainframe, through the ceremony of cleansing\nthe sewers, or perhaps Rigolio has been imprinted with the task\nof killing the conciliator if he finds him. I'll look again." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I very much doubt that he knows such details of the Conciliator's\ntale as his \"baptism\" in Gyoll. Where would Typhon, Rigoglio, or\nMainframe -- all of which left Urth a thousand years before the\nbirth (let alone the rebirth) of Severian have learned of this?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-12-03T19:28:00+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) finally - a mechanism", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 11:11 AM 12/3/2002, you wrote:\nMarc writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Remember that when Fava and Inclito's mother tell their\nstories, the narrator has the ability to enter their story.\nIn other words, he can alter events that he hears about\nand use his \"power\" to enter the story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I believe that this forces us to grant as a \"least hypothesis\"\nthat the Narr's astral travel ability includes the ability to\ntravel in time to a space-_and-time_ location* where at least\none member of the travelling party has been before. (I perceive\nfairly strong evidence that he has such limits in the \"place\"\ndimensions; _not_ to limit \"time\" similarly would require an\nadditional hypothetical.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm sure I'm forgetting something relevant, but the ability to enter a \nstory while it is told and alter it's telling does not seem to imply time \ntravel but something like telepathy. The story is changed. Is there any \nindication that the history behind the story has been changed?\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-12-03T23:05:13+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) finally - a mechanism", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l quoted:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If you want to argue that Severian was not dead at the exact\nfirst time that Silk appears, you have to factor in the very\nsignificant drowning in Gyoll that must be taking place\nEXACTLY as Silk appears in that time" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And wrote:\nCertainly it appears that the group's first arrival in Nessus\ntakes place at _approximately_ the time of the drowning;" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"EXACTLY\" would take some serious establishing. I accept it\nas likely, though; it seems to suit the situation.<<\n\nI would add that Sev's \"drowning\" in the Gyoll obviously took place during\nthe summer, during warm weather. Sev was cleaning out a \"frozen drain\" when\nhe found Triskele, in the winter.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-12-03T23:11:37+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) finally - a mechanism", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I would add that Sev's \"drowning\" in the Gyoll obviously took=20\nplace during the summer, during warm weather. Sev was=20\ncleaning out a \"frozen drain\" when he found Triskele, in the winter." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, aye. Actually, it seems fairly clear that the first showing\nof the Narrator & party in Nessus does take place the same day\nas the drowning/baptism/whatever: as someone pointed out when the\nbook first appeared, we now know why the barbican wasn't guarded\nthat evening. (Barbican? Maybe I have the wrong word...?)" } ] } ] }