{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3645", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3645, "subject": "finally - a mechanism: baptism", "messages": 4, "voices": 2, "first": "2002-12-03T19:57:23+00:00", "last": "2002-12-04T17:41:00+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-12-03T19:57:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) finally - a mechanism: baptism", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 08:22 AM 12/3/2002, marc wrote:\nHere is a mechanism that we may want to look at for time travel:\n\nRemember that when Fava and Inclito's mother tell their stories, the narrator\nhas the ability to enter their story. In other words, he can alter events\nthat he hears about and use his \"power\" to enter the story. He actually\nappears in Inclito's mother's story as a figure from her past, while he\nchanges Fava's story. I argue that his astral travel can be based off of\nsomething that he hears about - and that one of Typhon's big concerns when \nhe scanned himself into mainframe was the conciliator, so that when Silk's \nspirit is reunited with his body from Pig at the very end of the flashback \nscenes of return to the whorl, it brings with it Pas' preoccupation with \nthe figure of the Conciliator - and it also programs him with Typhon's \nobsession to meet and possibly influence the conciliator, sending Silk's \nspirit across time to find that man at his true birth - his baptism in the \nriver. If you want to argue\nthat Severian was not dead at the exact first time that Silk appears, you \nhave\nto factor in the very significant drowning in Gyoll that must be taking place\nEXACTLY as Silk appears in that time - the true birth (or death) of the\nSeverian we know - and therefore the logical focal point for his\nvivimancer-hood." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now this is a good thought, but what does it mean? I'm finding it hard to \nwrap around Typhon's supposed concern to find the Conciliator, this being \npassed on to Passilk, and then on to the Narrator, etc.\n I suggest we think more about the Outsider here, since Severian's \nbaptism is clearly Outsider stuff. Like Silk's enlightenment, it is his \npoint of initiation into his \"messianic calling.\"\n Silk has been Enlightened when the Holy Spirit falls upon him. \nThis is clearly like Jesus' baptism, and thus like all baptisms. Later, \nSilk himself undergoes death, burial, and resurrection. Now the Narrator \narrives on Urth right at the time of Severian's baptism, death, and first \nresurrection. That seems a better link, IMO: that one specially baptized \nman is drawn to the moment of another special man's baptism.\n At the moment Severian is starting his new life, Silk Plus appears \nto him and spends a little time with him. Is there some passing on of Silk \nPlus's wisdom to Severian implied, if only a few key thoughts? Is the \nNarrator helping Severian become the Conciliator?\n This SEEMS the right moment in Severian's young life for Silk to \narrive and pass on his wisdom to him.\n Now, either this is a coincidence in the overall historical \"plan\" \nof the Outsider, so that Silk's lifespan has come to the same point in time \nas Severian's baptism on Urth; or else as you have argued there is a draw \nacross time to this event.\n One might argue, building on the above, that the draw across time \nis the baptism of Severian. The baptized, and then dead & resurrected, and \nnow mature and aged Silk, himself clearly a \"conciliator,\" is drawn across \ntime to meet the Conciliator right at the beginning of his new life, \nprecisely because of who Silk is and who Severian is. If this does not seem \nlike \"good SF,\" remember that Silk's enlightenment was a \"purely spiritual \nevent\" not paralleled by anything \"scientific.\" In this narrative the \nOutsider is a player, though only openly an occasional one.\n At the same time, if the only \"mechanism\" is the plan of the \nOutsider, a link of the Spirit so to speak, then a \"draw across time\" is no \nmore credible than the \"historical-predestinated coincidence\" option \ndiscussed above.\n In defense of the Blushas thesis, I can point out that \"looping in \ntime\" is a theme in the Severian books, and that introducing this event \nmight hint at another loop: Silk, living much later in history, goes back \nin time to help initiate the Conciliator's work. This notion by itself \nseems quite Lupine. But I submit we need corroborative evidence for a \"draw \nacross time,\" for by itself this \"coincidence\" need be nothing more than \nthe \"plan of the Outsider\" to bring both events together at the same time.\n At present, I'm satisfied with the notion that Silk precedes \nSeverian in time, and that Severian is partly a disciple of Silk.\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-12-03T23:28:08+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) finally - a mechanism: baptism", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nutria wrote:\nI suggest we think more about the Outsider here, since \nSeverian's baptism is clearly Outsider stuff." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well ... Increate stuff. ;*)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Like Silk's enlightenment, it is his \npoint of initiation into his \"messianic calling.\"\n Silk has been Enlightened when the Holy Spirit falls \nupon him. This is clearly like Jesus' baptism, and thus like\nall baptisms. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, all \"valid\" baptisms ... I wouldn't care to make the\nargument that, say, John's baptisms (at least prior to Jesus'\nshowing up) necessarily brought the HS to the baptisee ... but\nthat's one of those theological details what bore so many of\nour participants ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Later, Silk himself undergoes death, burial, and resurrection. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Goodness. And can it have happened that none of us has thought\nof Horn's experience in the pit that way? I know I haven't, but\nnow suddenly it smashes me in the face as one of those \"too\nobvious to notice\" things Wolfe purloinedlettricly scatters all\nover his texts." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now the Narrator arrives on Urth right at the time of Severian's\nbaptism, death, and first resurrection. That seems a better link,\nIMO: that one specially baptized man is drawn to the moment of\nanother special man's baptism." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ummm. _Three_ specially baptised men, counting whatever is left \nof Horn, and counting Pas, who has also died and been resurrected \nat this point ... But with all due respect, that seems more like \na thematic reason (akin to the gun-waiting-to-be-fired) than an \nin-story mechanism; why, in plot-logic rather than thematics, does\nthe Narrator appear at _that_ time? It remains simpler (imho) to\npresume that there's no time-travel involved.\n\n(Indeed, you recognize the thematic value when you say:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " This SEEMS the right moment in Severian's young life \nfor Silk to arrive and pass on his wisdom to him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": ")" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Now, either this is a coincidence in the overall \nhistorical \"plan\" of the Outsider," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "With God there are no coincidences..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If this does not seem like \"good SF,\" remember that Silk's\nenlightenment was a \"purely spiritual event\" not paralleled\nby anything \"scientific.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have trouble accepting that ... Wolfe, throughout the Sun\nbooks, goes to a great deal of trouble to maintain a sort of\nambiguity where the events that seem supernatural also have a\nnaturalistic explanation (though those explanations often feel\nquite unsatisfying when stated baldly). In the case of Silk's\nenlightenment, he tosses us Crane's theory of a cererbral \naccident -- as a herring _so_ red that nobody in their right\nmind will believe it; leaving us wondering where the \"real\"\nnaturalistic explanation lies. I have never found it, but\nremain convinced, because Wolfe has otherwise kept his method\nso consistent, that he must have planted it somewhere: possibly\nsomeplace where Crane's theory hides it from us..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In this narrative the Outsider is a player, though only\nopenly an occasional one." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "With the exception of Silk's enlightenment, does the \nOutsider make any other interventions that don't have\nalternate, \"naturalistic\" explanations?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In defense of the Blushas thesis, I can point out that \"looping\nin time\" is a theme in the Severian books, and that introducing \nthis event might hint at another loop: Silk, living much later in \nhistory, goes back in time to help initiate the Conciliator's\nwork." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While remaining firmly dubious about the \"later in history/goes\nback in time\" part, the rest, I find quite delightful ... one \nmight even see the Narrator's appearance in Severian's life as\nsomewhat akin to the way John the B plays the Elijah role in \nJesus' life. (While Silk stands very much as a Moses figure, \nhe seems to have aspects of many of the major prophets, notably\nJeremiah...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At present, I'm satisfied with the notion that Silk precedes \nSeverian in time, and that Severian is partly a disciple of Silk." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree completely." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-12-04T17:34:50+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) finally - a mechanism: baptism", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At 05:28 PM 12/3/2002, Blattid wrote back to me:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If this does not seem like \"good SF,\" remember that Silk's\nenlightenment was a \"purely spiritual event\" not paralleled\nby anything \"scientific.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have trouble accepting that ... Wolfe, throughout the Sun\nbooks, goes to a great deal of trouble to maintain a sort of\nambiguity where the events that seem supernatural also have a\nnaturalistic explanation (though those explanations often feel\nquite unsatisfying when stated baldly). In the case of Silk's\nenlightenment, he tosses us Crane's theory of a cererbral\naccident -- as a herring _so_ red that nobody in their right\nmind will believe it; leaving us wondering where the \"real\"\nnaturalistic explanation lies. I have never found it, but\nremain convinced, because Wolfe has otherwise kept his method\nso consistent, that he must have planted it somewhere: possibly\nsomeplace where Crane's theory hides it from us..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, but in the interview Wolfe said it was purely supernatural, and my \nquestion was whether it as purely \"scientific\" or both in a parallel way. I \nagree that we really seem to \"need\" something more than just a spiritual \nlink between Silk and Severian; I was just pointing out that if this is all \nthere turns out to be, it is not wholly unlupine." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In this narrative the Outsider is a player, though only\nopenly an occasional one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "With the exception of Silk's enlightenment, does the\nOutsider make any other interventions that don't have\nalternate, \"naturalistic\" explanations?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is there another explanation for Silk's resurrection?\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-12-04T17:41:00+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) finally - a mechanism: baptism", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yeah, but in the interview Wolfe said it was purely \nsupernatural, " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oops. I fergot all about that..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and my question was whether it as purely \"scientific\" or\nboth in a parallel way. I agree that we really seem to\n\"need\" something more than just a spiritual link between\nSilk and Severian; I was just pointing out that if this\nis all there turns out to be, it is not wholly unlupine." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, I'll buy that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "In this narrative the Outsider is a player, though only \nopenly an occasional one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "With the exception of Silk's enlightenment, does the\nOutsider make any other interventions that don't have alternate, \n\"naturalistic\" explanations?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is there another explanation for Silk's resurrection?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ummm, he was only mostly-dead? (If he was completely dead,\nthey'd have gone through his pockets for loose cardbits.)\n\nThe piece of Severian that (I think it's) Don says is going \nto be in him resurrected him?\n\nGene Wolfe did it?\n\nOh well ... Yeah, I'm just futzing. Clearly the Outsider\nacts as a major player a _lot_ in the Long/Short books,\nnot least in the Eucharist on Blue." } ] } ] }