{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3651", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3651, "subject": "Marc's smoking gun?", "messages": 10, "voices": 6, "first": "2002-12-04T16:15:25+00:00", "last": "2002-12-17T03:12:00+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-12-04T16:15:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Marc's smoking gun?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(This is a somewhat artificial post ... I've self-edited but\nleft in some weird stuff to indicate how my thought processes\nwent.)\n\n\nAmong other things, Marc points out" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The underwater wall that surrounds the huge city Seawrack \nspeaks of: evidence of a flood." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay ... This may or may not count as a smoking gun, but \n(to my own vast surprise, as I have a deep-seated _dislike_\nof the Blushas theory) I found it extremely persuasive, and \nin fact felt quite startled that I had not noticed it before." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Later (in the same post), he wrote:\n... can't Silk in his astral travel go through the same\n\"white hole\" or whatever to go back in time in his travels?\nThere you go: he travels far enough away to pass through that \ndying/gestating black/white hole, and the red light he seeks \nis through that barrier. Since he travels with light, of\ncourse he is drawn to the spiritual birth of the New Sun." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see any evidence that the Narrator's astral travel\nhas anything to do with the White Fountain, but that might\nbe another\n\nOH.\n\nWow.\n\n_Duh!_\n\nNow I'm convinced. The whole thing makes sense, in an utterly\nLupine way.\n\nHow does the _Whorl_ wind up back at Ushas? How does so much\ntime pass? What odd relativistic effects stretch the thousand\nyears or so we have been talking about to many thousands, maybe\nmillions?\n\nLet's answer that question with another question: As the \n_Whorl_ was heading out from the Urth system, what major\nspacetime anomaly was heading _toward_ it ... ?\n\nHidden in plain sight. Marc, I hold the Blushas theory as\nfully plausible and highly probable. You da man.\n\nNow, this doesn't actually solve the mystery of why the\nNarrator winds up at Severian's childhood ... or does it? \nAgain and again, I'm looking for a mechanism that fits \nwith the other known constraints upon the Narrator's \nastral travel. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Elsewhere in the post, he wrote: \nif a ship has the ability to reach back in time, like \nthe ship Severian takes by moving through space in UOTNS," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Need I point out that the ship in _Urth_ runs by angel power?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The abilty of Green to affect the tide at its closest." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This remains puzzling. If Green == Lune, then the orbital\nmechanics get messed up ... I showed earlier that Green \nneed not be nearer the Short Sun than Blue, but we need\nan orbit that puts them close together _only_ every -- uh\n-- however many years it was, my little grey cells seem to\nhave failed me; and we need an explanation of how Lune\nbecame massive enough to hold an atmosphere -- massive \nenough that Horn doesn't notice a difference in weight \nwhen he travels there.\n\nActually, we can handwave this latter point and say that\nit must have happened _before_ Severian's time, because\nit obviously must hold an atmosphere in order for the\n\"forests of Lune\" to exist at all; but the orbital problem\nremains. I do not suppose it intractible, but I'd like a\nsolution.\n\nOther problems remain: \n\no If (as Wolfe has clearly stated) Severian's future is \n the future of the Green Man, then where are his people,\n (possibly the descendants of the Cargo?), and who are\n the Neighbors?\no Why have all the creatures on Urth developed extra\n limbs while, apparently, remaining otherwise\n recognizeable? (Handwaving about doubled chromosomes\n _won't_ solve this one.) \no What kind of evolution accounts for the inhumi? The\n Neighbors? Those gosh-darned trees?\no And what about Naomi?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-12-10T21:41:02+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Marc's smoking gun?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n(This is a somewhat artificial post ... I've self-edited but\nleft in some weird stuff to indicate how my thought processes\nwent.)\n\n\nAmong other things, Marc points out" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The underwater wall that surrounds the huge city Seawrack \nspeaks of: evidence of a flood." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Okay ... This may or may not count as a smoking gun, but \n(to my own vast surprise, as I have a deep-seated _dislike_\nof the Blushas theory) I found it extremely persuasive, and \nin fact felt quite startled that I had not noticed it before." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "More (but not as good) evidence of a flood is the Neighbor in the\ntree that one of the twins sees through the Neighbors' ring.\nSomewhere late in RTW." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Later (in the same post), he wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "... can't Silk in his astral travel go through the same\n\"white hole\" or whatever to go back in time in his travels?\nThere you go: he travels far enough away to pass through that \ndying/gestating black/white hole, and the red light he seeks \nis through that barrier. Since he travels with light, of\ncourse he is drawn to the spiritual birth of the New Sun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't see any evidence that the Narrator's astral travel\nhas anything to do with the White Fountain, but that might\nbe another\n\nOH.\n\nWow.\n\n_Duh!_\n\nNow I'm convinced. The whole thing makes sense, in an utterly\nLupine way.\n\nHow does the _Whorl_ wind up back at Ushas? How does so much\ntime pass? What odd relativistic effects stretch the thousand\nyears or so we have been talking about to many thousands, maybe\nmillions?\n\nLet's answer that question with another question: As the \n_Whorl_ was heading out from the Urth system, what major\nspacetime anomaly was heading _toward_ it ... ?\n\nHidden in plain sight. Marc, I hold the Blushas theory as\nfully plausible and highly probable. You da man." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nThis is very appealing from the text, but it doesn't seem to fit\nwith that interview that everybody's been quoting at\n.\n\n\"3. What was Typhon's purpose in launching the Whorl and was the\nBlue/Green [solar] system the intended destination? -- Knowing Typhon\nas I do, he probably had at least half a dozen purposes; but\ncertainly one of the chief must have been self-aggrandizement -- to\nreturn human kind to the stars would be a very great thing indeed.\nYes, the Blue-Green system was the intended destination.\"\n\nMaybe I'm missing some way to reconcile it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Elsewhere in the post, he wrote: " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The abilty of Green to affect the tide at its closest." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Any large object would do that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This remains puzzling. If Green == Lune, then the orbital\nmechanics get messed up ... I showed earlier that Green \nneed not be nearer the Short Sun than Blue, but we need\nan orbit that puts them close together _only_ every -- uh\n-- however many years it was, my little grey cells seem to\nhave failed me; and we need an explanation of how Lune\nbecame massive enough to hold an atmosphere -- massive \nenough that Horn doesn't notice a difference in weight \nwhen he travels there." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wasn't it six years? Anyway, I don't think we should worry\nabout celestial mechanics. I'll bet Wolfe didn't." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, we can handwave this latter point and say that\nit must have happened _before_ Severian's time, because\nit obviously must hold an atmosphere in order for the\n\"forests of Lune\" to exist at all;" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That strikes me as reasonable, not handwaving." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "but the orbital problem\nremains. I do not suppose it intractible, but I'd like a\nsolution.\n\nOther problems remain: \n\no If (as Wolfe has clearly stated) Severian's future is \n the future of the Green Man, then where are his people,\n (possibly the descendants of the Cargo?), and who are\n the Neighbors?\no Why have all the creatures on Urth developed extra\n limbs while, apparently, remaining otherwise\n recognizeable? (Handwaving about doubled chromosomes\n _won't_ solve this one.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Those two seem to me to be very good questions." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "o What kind of evolution accounts for the inhumi? The\n Neighbors? Those gosh-darned trees?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The same that accounts for Lyle Alzabo, that is, whatever Wolfe\nwanted." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "o And what about Naomi?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dorcas's mother?\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-12-10T21:50:55+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Marc's smoking gun?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jerry F knocks my reconciliation to the Blushas theory into a \ncocked hat." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How does the _Whorl_ wind up back at Ushas? How does so much time \npass? What odd relativistic effects stretch the thousand \nyears or so we have been talking about to many thousands,\nmaybe millions?\n\nLet's answer that question with another question: As the\n_Whorl_ was heading out from the Urth system, what major\nspacetime anomaly was heading _toward_ it ... ?\n\nHidden in plain sight. Marc, I hold the Blushas theory as fully \nplausible and highly probable. You da man." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...\n\nThis is very appealing from the text, but it doesn't seem to \nfit with that interview that everybody's been quoting at \n.\n\n\"3. What was Typhon's purpose in launching the Whorl and was \nthe Blue/Green [solar] system the intended destination? -- \nKnowing Typhon as I do, he probably had at least half a dozen \npurposes; but certainly one of the chief must have been \nself-aggrandizement -- to return human kind to the stars \nwould be a very great thing indeed. Yes, the Blue-Green \nsystem was the intended destination.\"\n\nMaybe I'm missing some way to reconcile it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mmmm. This is a difficulty, isn't it? \n\nMarc, do you have an answer for this? Cause I sure don't." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-12-12T14:52:30+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Marc's smoking gun?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 12/4/02 10:15 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes at ddanehy at siebel.com wrote:\nHow does the _Whorl_ wind up back at Ushas? How does so much\ntime pass? What odd relativistic effects stretch the thousand\nyears or so we have been talking about to many thousands, maybe\nmillions?\n\nLet's answer that question with another question: As the\n_Whorl_ was heading out from the Urth system, what major\nspacetime anomaly was heading _toward_ it ... ?\n\nHidden in plain sight. Marc, I hold the Blushas theory as\nfully plausible and highly probable. You da man." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can't share Dan'l's enthusiasm; in fact, I see several strong objections\nto this scenario, apart from Wolfe's words in the interview.\n\n1) The white hole, iirc, is a conduit of matter and/or energy from Yesod to\nour universe of Briah. There's no reason why flying into, or near, such an\nobject should cause the Whorl to leap ahead thousands or millions of years\nin time while remaining in the same spatial position relative to Urth, but\nturned in the opposite direction.\n\n2) This particular white hole emits enough energy to recharge the sun.\nFlying into it would lead to incineration rather than time travel. And\nsimply flying near it should be no different from flying near any heavy\nbody; after all the white sun passes close enough to Urth to cause\ncatastrophic tidal effects, without flinging Urth into the future.\n\n3) My recollection of the Long Sun books is sketchy, but there must have\nbeen some sort of navigational system on board the Whorl. If the events of\n1) above had taken place, they would have been noticed, and the Whorl would\nnot have continued upon its way as if nothing had happened. (One could\nargue that the events were noticed, and the Whorl decided to abort its\njourney and proceed to the nearest habitable system which just happened to\nbe Ushas; but this would contradict Wolfe's words even more strongly.)\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Don Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-12-14T22:31:04+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Marc's smoking gun?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi everyone,\n\nI'm way way way behind on the list, but I have to put in my two cents and\ntake a counteroffensive to the \"how do you explain this\" contingent that\nargues Blue is not Ushas. While I agree that the burden of proof is\ngenerally on the Blushas group, as the default answer is the negative, I\nneed a reasonable explanation for this: Why does time stop on the Whorl\nduring Silk's enlightenment? And don't say that time doesn't stop. It\ndoes. As I argued to Crush (and Blattid agreed) since Silk was outside of\ntime during his enlightenment he saw everything as it happened/happens -\npast present and future. So if he perceived time as stopped on the Whorl,\nit was stopped. And don't argue that Wolfe was careless in this. He knows\nfull well what being outside of time means. If time didn't stop, the proper\nway to show Silk's enlightenment would have been for him to see his own\nprone body on the ball court as everyone huddled around him wondering what\nwas going on. Silk's enlightenment and the stoppage of all action on the\nball court are completely separate events. So again I ask, why did time\nstop on the Whorl?\n\nDon diggity Doggett" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2002-12-14T23:29:49+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Marc's smoking gun?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What any of this has to do with the Blushas theory is tenuous at best. Even \nif you assume the Whorl travelled at the speed of light, this does nothing \nto help establish the identity of the Whorl's destination or even what \ndirection it was going. But I'll respond, since I don't see the question as \nvalid.\n\nTime stopped for Silk, or so he felt. Time is subjective, it has a frame of \nreference and appears to pass at different rates, respectively, when you \ncompare them. Silk described what he experienced - this doesn't mean that \neveryone else experienced the same thing, and in fact no one else described \nexperiencing anything of the sort at that time. If you're saying that Silk \nexperienced a time stoppage because of acceleration to light speed, then you \nneed to explain how Silk did so - and without disastrous physical \nconsequences - while everyone else did not, and with no apparent motion \nbetween them.\n\nSilk describes his own perceptions of being outside time - this narrative is \nbeing delivered by Horn and Nettle, based on what Silk told them. This in \nitself is not staggering, because mystics have been describing this \nphenomena from time immemorial, in much the same terms. Whether you believe \nSilk's enlightenment was mystical in nature or not, in order to describe it \nhe pretty much has to fall back on the vocabulary of mysticism - and given \nhis background, he naturally would.\n\nOn my first reading, and also on my second, I find no consistent problem \nwith my own interpretation of the passage. Basically, I commit the shameful \nand extremely unwise sin of believing what Silk says. He was enlightened, he \npartook of the consciousness of the Outsider who stands outside of time, and \nsaw - ever so fractionally - through the Outsider's eyes.\n\nThe joke at Dr. Crane's expense is *not* that his idea of Silk having had a \nstroke or embolism or whatever is necessarily incorrect. The joke on Dr. \nCrane is that he missed the *point* of the whole thing in the process of \nfocussing on the physical phenomena involved, as if they made any difference \n- this, by the way, tastes of the humor of G.K. Chesterton, whose influence \nruns through the entire series. So, with a wink and a nod to Dr. Crane, if \nthe mystical offends, then say he had a stroke if you like.\n\nChris" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hi everyone,\n\nI'm way way way behind on the list, but I have to put in my two cents and\ntake a counteroffensive to the \"how do you explain this\" contingent that\nargues Blue is not Ushas. While I agree that the burden of proof is\ngenerally on the Blushas group, as the default answer is the negative, I\nneed a reasonable explanation for this: Why does time stop on the Whorl\nduring Silk's enlightenment? And don't say that time doesn't stop. It\ndoes. As I argued to Crush (and Blattid agreed) since Silk was outside of\ntime during his enlightenment he saw everything as it happened/happens -\npast present and future. So if he perceived time as stopped on the Whorl,\nit was stopped. And don't argue that Wolfe was careless in this. He knows\nfull well what being outside of time means. If time didn't stop, the \nproper\nway to show Silk's enlightenment would have been for him to see his own\nprone body on the ball court as everyone huddled around him wondering what\nwas going on. Silk's enlightenment and the stoppage of all action on the\nball court are completely separate events. So again I ask, why did time\nstop on the Whorl?\n\nDon diggity Doggett\n\n\n\n--" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Don Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-12-16T01:32:44+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Marc's smoking gun?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Chris\" \nTo: \nSent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 3:29 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Marc's smoking gun?\nWhat any of this has to do with the Blushas theory is tenuous at best." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Even" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "if you assume the Whorl travelled at the speed of light, this does nothing\nto help establish the identity of the Whorl's destination or even what\ndirection it was going. But I'll respond, since I don't see the question\nas\nvalid." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It has everything to do with the Blushas theory because it means the Whorl\ncould have ended up anywhere at any time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Time stopped for Silk, or so he felt." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is simply not so. One cannot be both outside of time and frozen in\ntime. They are qualitatively different. I'll illustrate. If time stopped\nfor you in your house and I was somehow unaffected by this change and\nrearranged all of the furniture in your house you would experience it as a\ndisconnect when time resumed. One instant your furniture would be the way\nyou left it and the next it would be someway else. If I didn't rearrange\nyour furniture you would never know time had stopped. No one rearranged any\nfurniture on the Whorl. If you are outside of time as Silk claims to have\nbeen, you would be omniscient and would be able to witness the stoppage of\ntime." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Silk describes his own perceptions of being outside time - this narrative\nis\nbeing delivered by Horn and Nettle, based on what Silk told them. This in\nitself is not staggering, because mystics have been describing this\nphenomena from time immemorial, in much the same terms. Whether you\nbelieve\nSilk's enlightenment was mystical in nature or not, in order to describe\nit\nhe pretty much has to fall back on the vocabulary of mysticism - and given\nhis background, he naturally would." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No mystic to my recollection has ever described being outside of time as a\nstoppage of all motion. It has been described as being indistinguishable\nfrom an instant or an aeon but that is a far different perception. Again, I\nsay that Wolfe is not so careless as to describe something as theologically\nfundamental as being outside of time as a stoppage of motion. It amazes me\nthat everyone will split hairs over the correct distance in leagues from\nBlue to Green in relation to Urth to Lune, or whether inhumi can breed on\nthe Whorl (which they certainly could if there are jungles) and various\nother scientific and pseudo scientific minutae, but when it comes to\nsomething as theologically specific as the concept of being outside of time\n(which Silk, as a trained theologian, would not be careless about either) in\na work which is at it's heart theologically motivated the same rigors are\nset aside. So, to my mind, I remain unanswered.\n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2002-12-16T16:26:13+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Marc's smoking gun?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hey Don,\nWith the recent discussion on a Vironese name for Zx, it occurs to me that a\ngood one for you might be Lycaon from the African hunting \"dog.\" If you've\nread the Soldier books then you know it's a very Lupine word. Anyway...\n\n\"Dog\"gett demands an answer:\nAs I argued to Crush (and Blattid agreed) since Silk was outside of\ntime during his enlightenment he saw everything as it happened/happens -\npast present and future. So if he perceived time as stopped on the Whorl,\nit was stopped. And don't argue that Wolfe was careless in this. He knows\nfull well what being outside of time means. If time didn't stop, the proper\nway to show Silk's enlightenment would have been for him to see his own\nprone body on the ball court as everyone huddled around him wondering what\nwas going on. Silk's enlightenment and the stoppage of all action on the\nball court are completely separate events. So again I ask, why did time\nstop on the Whorl?\n\nCrush reiterates:\nI said this before but I don't think I was clear enough. All time is\nstopped. Even \"now.\" All time is moving. Even \"now.\" It is all **relative**\nto your point of view. To a photon moving at the speed of light, Time hasn't\nstopped. It's non-existent. A photon from an extremely distant galaxy\narrives at my desk here at precisely the instant it left its source but from\nmy point of view it may have taken millions of years to arrive.\n\nTo say that Silk sees Time stopped due to his enlightened position OUTSIDE\nTime presupposes a relative perspective from WITHIN Time. This is why I said\nthat Silk seeing Time stopped on the Whorl tells us **nothing** about the\nlight-speed of the Whorl in any way. From his point of view he might have\nseen Time stopped or he might have seen moving at a million years per\nsecond, or backwards, or all at once (which seems to be how he saw it).\n\nWolfe **might** have used the Time stop as an **analogy** for the Whorl\nreaching of light speed but he **would not** being doing so based on\ntechnically accurate Einsteinian principles. So I would want evidence in\ntext or a requirement in theme to even consider it.\n\nTechnically, traveling **at** light speed is an impossible paradox although\nsome theorists have claimed FTL speed is not. The only way for your theory\nto carry is if they travel **at** light speed. Not possible and Wolfe surely\nknows it.\n\nAnyway, reaching light-speed does not mean they exceeded light speed. I\nwould think the Blushas theory would stand or fall regardless of whether\nyour theory is accurate anyway." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-12-16T22:19:43+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Marc's smoking gun?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Don Doggett wrote:\nSo again I ask, why did time stop on the Whorl?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ummm ... I don't think it did. Silk had an experience which \ntook place outside of Time, i.e., in Eternity, the perspective\nfrom which the Outsider (==the Christian God) views spacetime.\nThus, while he experienced the passage of time in his personal \nconsciousness, the \"time\" that passed for him had no meaning \non the Whorl or, presumably, the rest of spacetime. \n\nThink of it like this. Silk (like the rest of us) watches\nspacetime occurring in an orderly fashion, rather like someone\nparticpating in an interactive computer game, one where the\nplayer participates _as_ a character. Then the phone rings --\nthe Outsider \"calls,\" and the game goes into \"pause\" mode,\nwhile the Outsider tells Silk a number of things -- including,\nas it happens, some \"spoiler\" information about the game \nitself. When the call ends, the game comes out of \"pause\"\nmode, and continues exactly as it had been. No time has \npassed in the game, but no time has been skipped or lost in\nthe game either; the time the player has spent on the call\nhas nothing to do with the internal time of the game. Similarly,\nthe seeming duration of Silk's enlightenment has nothing to do\nwith the \"passage\" of \"time\" in the spacetime universe.\n\nH'mmm: the Long Sun books may have a place as the first SF \nnovels ever to successfully exploit _both_ Einsteinian \nspacetime _and_ the relationship Christianity describes between \nthe realms of Time and Eternity.\n\nMy brain hurts." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Don Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-12-17T03:12:00+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Marc's smoking gun?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush writes," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hey Don,\nWith the recent discussion on a Vironese name for Zx, it occurs to me that\na\ngood one for you might be Lycaon from the African hunting \"dog.\" If you've\nread the Soldier books then you know it's a very Lupine word. Anyway..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don replies\nIs that the kind of dog that grabs something and won't let it go until you\nhit it with a stick? In all seriousness though, I don't mind being wrong or\nbeing corrected but if I'm not satisfied with an answer, or feel like I\nhaven't gotten one, I tend to get pesky. Hopefully not too pesky. I'm not\nsure that I'm ready to yield on the matter of Silk's enlightenment, but I do\nsee the flaws in my argument and plan to mull it over. Thanks for the\npatient answers." } ] } ] }