Subject: (urth) Marc's smoking gun?

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <ddanehy at siebel.com>
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 16:15:25 +0000

(This is a somewhat artificial post ... I've self-edited but
left in some weird stuff to indicate how my thought processes
went.)

Among other things, Marc points out

> The underwater wall that surrounds the huge city Seawrack 
> speaks of: evidence of a flood.

Okay ... This may or may not count as a smoking gun, but 
(to my own vast surprise, as I have a deep-seated _dislike_
of the Blushas theory) I found it extremely persuasive, and 
in fact felt quite startled that I had not noticed it before.

Later (in the same post), he wrote:

> ... can't Silk in his astral travel go through the same
> "white hole" or whatever to go back in time in his travels?
> There you go: he travels far enough away to pass through that 
> dying/gestating black/white hole, and the red light he seeks 
> is through that barrier.  Since he travels with light, of
> course he is drawn to the spiritual birth of the New Sun.

I don't see any evidence that the Narrator's astral travel
has anything to do with the White Fountain, but that might
be another

OH.

Wow.

_Duh!_

Now I'm convinced. The whole thing makes sense, in an utterly
Lupine way.

How does the _Whorl_ wind up back at Ushas? How does so much
time pass? What odd relativistic effects stretch the thousand
years or so we have been talking about to many thousands, maybe
millions?

Let's answer that question with another question: As the 
_Whorl_ was heading out from the Urth system, what major
spacetime anomaly was heading _toward_ it ... ?

Hidden in plain sight. Marc, I hold the Blushas theory as
fully plausible and highly probable. You da man.

Now, this doesn't actually solve the mystery of why the
Narrator winds up at Severian's childhood ... or does it? 
Again and again, I'm looking for a mechanism that fits 
with the other known constraints upon the Narrator's 
astral travel. 

Elsewhere in the post, he wrote: 

> if a ship has the ability to reach back in time, like 
> the ship Severian takes by moving through space in UOTNS,

Need I point out that the ship in _Urth_ runs by angel power?

> The abilty of Green to affect the tide at its closest.

This remains puzzling. If Green == Lune, then the orbital
mechanics get messed up ... I showed earlier that Green 
need not be nearer the Short Sun than Blue, but we need
an orbit that puts them close together _only_ every -- uh
-- however many years it was, my little grey cells seem to
have failed me; and we need an explanation of how Lune
became massive enough to hold an atmosphere -- massive 
enough that Horn doesn't notice a difference in weight 
when he travels there.

Actually, we can handwave this latter point and say that
it must have happened _before_ Severian's time, because
it obviously must hold an atmosphere in order for the
"forests of Lune" to exist at all; but the orbital problem
remains. I do not suppose it intractible, but I'd like a
solution.

Other problems remain: 

o If (as Wolfe has clearly stated) Severian's future is 
  the future of the Green Man, then where are his people,
  (possibly the descendants of the Cargo?), and who are
  the Neighbors?
o Why have all the creatures on Urth developed extra
  limbs while, apparently, remaining otherwise
  recognizeable? (Handwaving about doubled chromosomes
  _won't_ solve this one.) 
o What kind of evolution accounts for the inhumi? The
  Neighbors? Those gosh-darned trees?
o And what about Naomi?

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From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 21:41:02 +0000

> in fact felt quite startled that I had not noticed it before.

More (but not as good) evidence of a flood is the Neighbor in the
tree that one of the twins sees through the Neighbors' ring.
Somewhere late in RTW.

> fully plausible and highly probable. You da man.
...

This is very appealing from the text, but it doesn't seem to fit
with that interview that everybody's been quoting at
<http://www.ansible.demon.co.uk/cc/cc77.html>.

"3. What was Typhon's purpose in launching the Whorl and was the
Blue/Green [solar] system the intended destination? -- Knowing Typhon
as I do, he probably had at least half a dozen purposes; but
certainly one of the chief must have been self-aggrandizement -- to
return human kind to the stars would be a very great thing indeed.
Yes, the Blue-Green system was the intended destination."

Maybe I'm missing some way to reconcile it.
 
> Elsewhere in the post, he wrote: 
...

> > The abilty of Green to affect the tide at its closest.

Any large object would do that.

> enough that Horn doesn't notice a difference in weight 

Wasn't it six years?  Anyway, I don't think we should worry
about celestial mechanics.  I'll bet Wolfe didn't.

> "forests of Lune" to exist at all;

That strikes me as reasonable, not handwaving.

> but the orbital problem

Those two seem to me to be very good questions.
 
>   Neighbors? Those gosh-darned trees?

The same that accounts for Lyle Alzabo, that is, whatever Wolfe
wanted.

> o And what about Naomi?

Dorcas's mother?

Jerry Friedman

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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <ddanehy at siebel.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 21:50:55 +0000

Jerry F knocks my reconciliation to the Blushas theory into a 
cocked hat.

> > How does the _Whorl_ wind up back at Ushas? How does so much time 
> > pass? What odd relativistic effects stretch the thousand 
> > years or so we have been talking about to many thousands,
> > maybe millions?
> > 
> > Hidden in plain sight. Marc, I hold the Blushas theory as fully 
> > plausible and highly probable. You da man.
> ...
> 
> This is very appealing from the text, but it doesn't seem to 
> fit with that interview that everybody's been quoting at 
> "3. What was Typhon's purpose in launching the Whorl and was 
> the Blue/Green [solar] system the intended destination? -- 
> Knowing Typhon as I do, he probably had at least half a dozen 
> purposes; but certainly one of the chief must have been 
> self-aggrandizement -- to return human kind to the stars 
> would be a very great thing indeed. Yes, the Blue-Green 
> system was the intended destination."
> 

Mmmm. This is a difficulty, isn't it? 

Marc, do you have an answer for this? Cause I sure don't.

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From: Adam Stephanides <adamsteph at earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 14:52:30 +0000

> fully plausible and highly probable. You da man.

I can't share Dan'l's enthusiasm; in fact, I see several strong objections
to this scenario, apart from Wolfe's words in the interview.

1)  The white hole, iirc, is a conduit of matter and/or energy from Yesod to
our universe of Briah.  There's no reason why flying into, or near, such an
object should cause the Whorl to leap ahead thousands or millions of years
in time while remaining in the same spatial position relative to Urth, but
turned in the opposite direction.

2)  This particular white hole emits enough energy to recharge the sun.
Flying into it would lead to incineration rather than time travel.  And
simply flying near it should be no different from flying near any heavy
body; after all the white sun passes close enough to Urth to cause
catastrophic tidal effects, without flinging Urth into the future.

3)  My recollection of the Long Sun books is sketchy, but there must have
been some sort of navigational system on board the Whorl.  If the events of
1) above had taken place, they would have been noticed, and the Whorl would
not have continued upon its way as if nothing had happened.  (One could
argue that the events were noticed, and the Whorl decided to abort its
journey and proceed to the nearest habitable system which just happened to
be Ushas; but this would contradict Wolfe's words even more strongly.)

--Adam

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From: Don Doggett <harlekin at earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 22:31:04 +0000

Hi everyone,

I'm way way way behind on the list, but I have to put in my two cents and
take a counteroffensive to the "how do you explain this" contingent that
argues Blue is not Ushas.  While I agree that the burden of proof is
generally on the Blushas group, as the default answer is the negative, I
need a reasonable explanation for this:  Why does time stop on the Whorl
during Silk's enlightenment?  And don't say that time doesn't stop.  It
does.  As I argued to Crush (and Blattid agreed)  since Silk was outside of
time during his enlightenment he saw everything as it happened/happens -
past present and future.  So if he perceived time as stopped on the Whorl,
it was stopped.  And don't argue that Wolfe was careless in this.  He knows
full well what being outside of time means.  If time didn't stop, the proper
way to show Silk's enlightenment would have been for him to see his own
prone body on the ball court as everyone huddled around him wondering what
was going on.  Silk's enlightenment and the stoppage of all action on the
ball court are completely separate events.  So again I ask, why did time
stop on the Whorl?

Don diggity Doggett

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From: Chris <rasputin_ at hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 23:29:49 +0000

What any of this has to do with the Blushas theory is tenuous at best. Even 
if you assume the Whorl travelled at the speed of light, this does nothing 
to help establish the identity of the Whorl's destination or even what 
direction it was going. But I'll respond, since I don't see the question as 
valid.

Time stopped for Silk, or so he felt. Time is subjective, it has a frame of 
reference and appears to pass at different rates, respectively, when you 
compare them. Silk described what he experienced - this doesn't mean that 
everyone else experienced the same thing, and in fact no one else described 
experiencing anything of the sort at that time. If you're saying that Silk 
experienced a time stoppage because of acceleration to light speed, then you 
need to explain how Silk did so - and without disastrous physical 
consequences - while everyone else did not, and with no apparent motion 
between them.

Silk describes his own perceptions of being outside time - this narrative is 
being delivered by Horn and Nettle, based on what Silk told them. This in 
itself is not staggering, because mystics have been describing this 
phenomena from time immemorial, in much the same terms. Whether you believe 
Silk's enlightenment was mystical in nature or not, in order to describe it 
he pretty much has to fall back on the vocabulary of mysticism - and given 
his background, he naturally would.

On my first reading, and also on my second, I find no consistent problem 
with my own interpretation of the passage. Basically, I commit the shameful 
and extremely unwise sin of believing what Silk says. He was enlightened, he 
partook of the consciousness of the Outsider who stands outside of time, and 
saw - ever so fractionally - through the Outsider's eyes.

The joke at Dr. Crane's expense is *not* that his idea of Silk having had a 
stroke or embolism or whatever is necessarily incorrect. The joke on Dr. 
Crane is that he missed the *point* of the whole thing in the process of 
focussing on the physical phenomena involved, as if they made any difference 
- this, by the way, tastes of the humor of G.K. Chesterton, whose influence 
runs through the entire series. So, with a wink and a nod to Dr. Crane, if 
the mystical offends, then say he had a stroke if you like.

Chris

>ball court are completely separate events.  So again I ask, why did time

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From: Don Doggett <harlekin at earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 01:32:44 +0000

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris" <rasputin_ at hotmail.com>
To: <urth at urth.net>
Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 3:29 PM
Subject: Re: (urth) Marc's smoking gun?

> direction it was going. But I'll respond, since I don't see the question
as

It has everything to do with the Blushas theory because it means the Whorl
could have ended up anywhere at any time.

> Time stopped for Silk, or so he felt.

This is simply not so.  One cannot be both outside of time and frozen in
time.  They are qualitatively different.  I'll illustrate.  If time stopped
for you in your house and I was somehow unaffected by this change and
rearranged all of the furniture in your house you would experience it as a
disconnect when time resumed.  One instant your furniture would be the way
you left it and the next it would be someway else.  If I didn't rearrange
your furniture you would never know time had stopped.  No one rearranged any
furniture on the Whorl.  If you are outside of time as Silk claims to have
been, you would be omniscient and would be able to witness the stoppage of
time.

> his background, he naturally would.

No mystic to my recollection has ever described being outside of time as a
stoppage of all motion.  It has been described as being indistinguishable
from an instant or an aeon but that is a far different perception.  Again, I
say that Wolfe is not so careless as to describe something as theologically
fundamental as being outside of time as a stoppage of motion.  It amazes me
that everyone will split hairs over the correct distance in leagues from
Blue to Green in relation to Urth to Lune, or whether inhumi can breed on
the Whorl (which they certainly could if there are jungles) and various
other scientific and pseudo scientific minutae, but when it comes to
something as theologically specific as the concept of being outside of time
(which Silk, as a trained theologian, would not be careless about either) in
a work which is at it's heart theologically motivated the same rigors are
set aside.  So, to my mind, I remain unanswered.

Don

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From: James Wynn <crushtv at hotpop.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 16:26:13 +0000

Hey Don,
With the recent discussion on a Vironese name for Zx, it occurs to me that a
good one for you might be Lycaon from the African hunting "dog." If you've
read the Soldier books then you know it's a very Lupine word. Anyway...

"Dog"gett demands an answer:
As I argued to Crush (and Blattid agreed)  since Silk was outside of

Crush reiterates:
I said this before but I don't think I was clear enough. All time is
stopped. Even "now." All time is moving. Even "now." It is all **relative**
to your point of view. To a photon moving at the speed of light, Time hasn't
stopped. It's non-existent. A photon from an extremely distant galaxy
arrives at my desk here at precisely the instant it left its source but from
my point of view it may have taken millions of years to arrive.

To say that Silk sees Time stopped due to his enlightened position OUTSIDE
Time presupposes a relative perspective from WITHIN Time. This is why I said
that Silk seeing Time stopped on the Whorl tells us **nothing** about the
light-speed of the Whorl in any way. From his point of view he might have
seen Time stopped or he might have seen moving at a million years per
second, or backwards, or all at once (which seems to be how he saw it).

Wolfe **might** have used the Time stop as an **analogy** for the Whorl
reaching of light speed but he **would not** being doing so based on
technically accurate Einsteinian principles. So I would want evidence in
text or a requirement in theme to even consider it.

Technically, traveling **at** light speed is an impossible paradox although
some theorists have claimed FTL speed is not. The only way for your theory
to carry is if they travel **at** light speed. Not possible and Wolfe surely
knows it.

Anyway, reaching light-speed does not mean they exceeded light speed. I
would think the Blushas theory would stand or fall regardless of whether
your theory is accurate anyway.

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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <ddanehy at siebel.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 22:19:43 +0000

Don Doggett wrote:

> So again I ask, why did time stop on the Whorl?

Ummm ... I don't think it did. Silk had an experience which 
took place outside of Time, i.e., in Eternity, the perspective
from which the Outsider (==the Christian God) views spacetime.
Thus, while he experienced the passage of time in his personal 
consciousness, the "time" that passed for him had no meaning 
on the Whorl or, presumably, the rest of spacetime. 

Think of it like this. Silk (like the rest of us) watches
spacetime occurring in an orderly fashion, rather like someone
particpating in an interactive computer game, one where the
player participates _as_ a character. Then the phone rings --
the Outsider "calls," and the game goes into "pause" mode,
while the Outsider tells Silk a number of things -- including,
as it happens, some "spoiler" information about the game 
itself. When the call ends, the game comes out of "pause"
mode, and continues exactly as it had been. No time has 
passed in the game, but no time has been skipped or lost in
the game either; the time the player has spent on the call
has nothing to do with the internal time of the game. Similarly,
the seeming duration of Silk's enlightenment has nothing to do
with the "passage" of "time" in the spacetime universe.

H'mmm: the Long Sun books may have a place as the first SF 
novels ever to successfully exploit _both_ Einsteinian 
spacetime _and_ the relationship Christianity describes between 
the realms of Time and Eternity.

My brain hurts.

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From: Don Doggett <harlekin at earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 03:12:00 +0000

Crush writes,

> read the Soldier books then you know it's a very Lupine word. Anyway...

Don replies
Is that the kind of dog that grabs something and won't let it go until you
hit it with a stick?  In all seriousness though, I don't mind being wrong or
being corrected but if I'm not satisfied with an answer, or feel like I
haven't gotten one, I tend to get pesky.  Hopefully not too pesky.  I'm not
sure that I'm ready to yield on the matter of Silk's enlightenment, but I do
see the flaws in my argument and plan to mull it over.  Thanks for the
patient answers.

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