{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/366", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 366, "subject": "Genetics & Spatial Dyslexia", "messages": 4, "voices": 4, "first": "1998-02-09T12:50:35+00:00", "last": "1998-02-10T09:11:26+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tellis at futurenet.co.uk" }, "date": "1998-02-09T13:54:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Genetics & Spatial Dyslexia", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " 09/02/98\n 14:45\n Genetics & Spatial Dyslexia\n\nRe South America\nI find such a dramatically changed S. America hard to reconcile\nwith some of the other details we're given, which suggest a generally\nuntraumatised continent. In particular there is the Stone Town, which has\napparently survived from our own early history. I do seem to recall a\npassage to the effect that Apu-punchau's power may have kept his\nhouse intact , however.\n\nDavid Lebling:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, someone asked about the name Legion. It's biblical, isn't it?\nFrom the story of Jesus casting the demons from a man into a herd\nof swine." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yup, Mark Ch.5 V.9: \"Call me Legion, for we are many.\" One of the\nBible's more disturbing passages. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Raster wrote:\nDavid_Lebling at avid.com goes for the Gould:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On the question of whether evolution stops when civilization is\nachieved; I doubt it. If you buy into \"puntuated equilibrium,\" you will\nsee that species go through long periods with nothing much happening,\nthen a rapid burst of evolution, and so on." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...\nPunctuated Equilibrium, as I understand it, requires that a small subset\nof a larger population be reproductively isolated..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Precisely. Our sprawling Urthian society effectively precludes\nPunctuated Equilibrium. You may or may not be born with, say, \nsuperior athletic ability as a result of a \"rapid burst of evolution\",\nbut that genetic contribution will always be lost in the ocean of \nmore mediocre genes (such as my own) a few generations down the line.\nIn the isolated communities Raster describes, however, that ocean is\na mere pool, and with no one caring for the slow and the weak the\ngenetically advantaged are very big fish in it. It's all a question of \nlebensraum - Mien Gott, I mean living space, living space.\n\nRe The Rats in the Walls: \nI have always taken \"crude writing\" to be a metaphor for rat-shit.\nIt's very much the kind of punning, yet thought-provoking imagery\nthat appeals to both Wolfe and Severian. \n\nRe Severian's spacial dyslexia" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian may well be spacially dyslexic. Take another look at\nthe Typhon sequence. Severian, looking out the left eye of \nwest-facing Mount Typhon, sees a battle ... to the northeast?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian sees a lot things he couldn't possibly see from that vantage\npoint. \"'No mountain is so high... a man could never see as far as I \ndo now.'\" Severian is looking out of mighty Typhon's eye, and can see\nwhatever Typhon wants him to see." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Another supporting detail: how many times is Severian given precise\ndirections to reach some place, but gets lost anyhow? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian explains this phenomenon quite simply, saying of his\nperfect memory when he gets lost on the ship \"...it did me no more\ngood than when I had tried to follow the directions of that lochage of \nthe peltasts whom I met upon the bridge of Gyoll. No doubt Idas had\nassumed I knew more of the ship than I did, and that I would not \ncount doors and look for turnings with exactness.\" (TUOTNS IV)\n\nAnd don't forget the time Severian brilliantly deduces the location\nof Terminus Est from a very partial exploration of the Hypogeum\nApotropaic. That doesn't sound like a man with spacial dyslexia to me.\n\n\nChristopher R. Culver:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There has been recent talk of the part of the BotNS concerning polychrome,\nthough many have wondered where it is. I have found in in _Shadow_, the\nchapter called \"Baldanders\" or the one right after it, paragraph 14." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At last! Thank you, Christopher. (Trust me to be out by twenty-odd \nchapters and three volumes...)\n\nTim Powers: an imaginative and highly enjoyable fantasist. Like Wolfe\nhe's extremely generous with his imagination: where other writers\nbuild a whole novel (or series of novels) around just one \"clever\" idea,\nWolfe and Powers pull them out of your pocket like conjuror's scarves\n(now where have I heard that before?) in an endless, colourful\nstream. I recommend all the titles David recommends." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mark Millman", "address": "mark_millman at hmco.com" }, "date": "1998-02-09T12:50:35+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Genetics & Spatial Dyslexia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd like to make a contribution to the evolutionary argu-\nment, if I may." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "tellis at futurenet.co.uk wrote:\nRaster wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David_Lebling at avid.com goes for the Gould:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On the question of whether evolution stops when\ncivilization is achieved; I doubt it. If you buy into\n\"puntuated equilibrium,\" you will see that species\ngo through long periods with nothing much hap-\npening, then a rapid burst of evolution, and so on." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "...\nPunctuated Equilibrium, as I understand it, requires\nthat a small subset of a larger population be repro-\nductively isolated..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Precisely. Our sprawling Urthian society effectively\nprecludes Punctuated Equilibrium. You may or may\nnot be born with, say, superior athletic ability as a\nresult of a \"rapid burst of evolution\", but that genetic\ncontribution will always be lost in the ocean of more\nmediocre genes (such as my own) a few generations\ndown the line. In the isolated communities Raster\ndescribes, however, that ocean is a mere pool, and\nwith no one caring for the slow and the weak the\ngenetically advantaged are very big fish in it. It's all\na question of lebensraum - Mien Gott, I mean living\nspace, living space." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ach, ja. The flip side of the coin is that the driving\nengine of evolution--the cause of the differential repro-\nductive success that shifts the genetic makeup of a\npopulation--is the environment. Technology as prac-\nticed by humans tends to mitigate or eliminate environ-\nmental stresses, including but not limited to disease,\nfamine, and predation. For example, the fur parkas of\ntraditional circumpolar peoples maintain a micro-\nclimate similar to that of east-central Africa next to their\nskins. (I'm told they're actually warmer in winter, with\nall that insulation, than they are in summer, when they\nwear less, and lighter, clothing.) Apes--chimps, at least\n--will apparently care for ill or injured members of their\nbands, but nobody's suggesting that evolution is very\nlikely to stop for them (other than the stoppage that\nextinction would cause) because they have virtually\nno technology. Obviously, the more advanced a\ntechnological system is, the more likely it is to succeed\nin protecting people from their environments. The man-\napes of the mines, assuming they weren't specifically\ndesigned for the purpose of guarding the works, were\nclearly a group whose technology wasn't up to protec-\nting them from the environmental hazards--though\nthose hazards do in this case seem to have been more\nsevere, and harder to guard against, than most, as\nthey very possibly involve heavy-duty radiation and\nall kinds of otherwise toxic substances. The level of\ntechnology at which Severian--and through him, we--\nsee them is fairly primitive, as indicated by the club\nthat he brings out of the mine. Even if they entered\nthe mines at a level of technology consistent with, say,\nwell-armed rebels hiding from the government (could\nSeverian have seen the descendants of his followers\nfrom Mount Typhon, just as Jonas saw the descen-\ndants of shipmates in the antechamber?), the stresses\nof life in the mines could have caused them to lose,\npiecemeal, their technology, possibly accelerating\ntheir physical evolution. So even a small group of\nindividuals, given favorable conditions, might not\nundergo any noticeable change in the genetic make-\nup of the population (leaving aside such complica-\ntions as genetic drift--basically random change in a\nvery small gene pool due to the comparatively\nlarge contribution of each individual), while a much\nlarger population, given sufficient environmental\npressure, could change rapidly. Punctuated equi-\nlibrium suggests what it does in part because it\nassumes that environments don't change continu-\nously; but when a population's environment does\nchange, it's likely to change rapidly and substan-\ntially, even dramatically.\n\nSorry to be so long-winded my first time out!\n\n\nMark Millman\n(If this were the Whorl, I'd ask you to call me Nacre,\nbut, of course, it's not.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "1998-02-09T15:15:45+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Genetics & Spatial Dyslexia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just a note:\n\n\tWolfe is a vocal Lamarkian, and so the impact of environment on genetics,\nand the inheritance of acquired characteristics, is very much part of his\nthinking, and must be taken into account in reading his future history books.\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Charles Dye", "address": "raster at highfiber.com" }, "date": "1998-02-10T09:11:26+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Genetics & Spatial Dyslexia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Tony Ellis\" counters my guesswork:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Re Severian's spacial dyslexia\nSeverian may well be spacially dyslexic. Take another look at\nthe Typhon sequence. Severian, looking out the left eye of \nwest-facing Mount Typhon, sees a battle ... to the northeast?\n\nSeverian sees a lot things he couldn't possibly see from that vantage\npoint. \"'No mountain is so high... a man could never see as far as I \ndo now.'\" Severian is looking out of mighty Typhon's eye, and can see\nwhatever Typhon wants him to see." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure. Even so, it irks me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Another supporting detail: how many times is Severian given precise\ndirections to reach some place, but gets lost anyhow? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian explains this phenomenon quite simply, saying of his\nperfect memory when he gets lost on the ship \"...it did me no more\ngood than when I had tried to follow the directions of that lochage of \nthe peltasts whom I met upon the bridge of Gyoll. No doubt Idas had\nassumed I knew more of the ship than I did, and that I would not \ncount doors and look for turnings with exactness.\" (TUOTNS IV)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As an even simpler explanation, it should be pointed out that Idas\nhas an interest in misleading Severian. But the same thing happens on\nother occasions, too. Who is misleading him in the twisted alleys of\nThrax? Not his memory, surely? Proves nothing, but I find the pattern\ninteresting." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And don't forget the time Severian brilliantly deduces the location\nof Terminus Est from a very partial exploration of the Hypogeum\nApotropaic. That doesn't sound like a man with spacial dyslexia to me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Hypogeum Apotropaic is *symmetrical*, like the villa Triste-le-Roy.\nSounds to me like an easy environment for a dyslexic detective, although\nI'll admit that I know little about the subject.\n\nAnother odd piece that seems to fit the same pattern: Does Severian\never tell us which leg, left or right, is injured at Orithiya? It\nseems to me that he falls into a \"good leg, bad leg\" orientation,\nalmost as if that's easier for him. And which cheek does Agia lay open?\n\n(For the record: Caesar Claudius, bum left leg. King Jesus, dislocated\nleft leg I *think*, might be mistaken. Patera Silk, broken right ankle.\nSeverian? I think left, but my reasoning is extremely indirect.)\n\nraster at highfiber.com (trying to say \"dyslexic detective\" five times fast)" } ] } ] }