{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3661", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3661, "subject": "FLF: the four and who/what they are", "messages": 4, "voices": 3, "first": "2002-12-11T01:46:24+00:00", "last": "2002-12-15T06:49:44+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-12-11T01:46:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FLF: the four and who/what they are", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Catharine Margaret Garth, aka Candy, is the massive (250+ pound) pale\nprostitute who wears white (a virginal color) which is sometimes (e.g., as\nshe is singing at the bar in the Consort hotel) mistaken for blue (blue and\nwhite being the colors of Mary, mother of Jesus, iirc). To escape from\nBelmont, the mental hospital, she has to put on the uniform of a black\nnurse (note the contrast); after which, since people assume she is a nurse,\nshe begins to act like one, and becomes a healer.\n\nThe witch in black (opposite to Candy's white), known as Madame Serpentina\nand Marie, uses her own strip-show seduction to manipulate Ozzie Barnes\nearly on in the novel, but despite all that she seems to be a virgin (the\ngypsy Pete says that King would kill her if she had a non-gypsy boyfriend,\nif I read the passage right, and this seems like a real threat rather than\nan exagerration). She is also dark skinned, as the black nurse points out.\n\nOsgood Myles Barnes. (Why do three of the four have hidden names beginning\nwith \"M\"? I heard that question 16 years ago and now I ask it myself.\nDoes it have to do with the fact that \"M\" is at the middle of the\nalphabet?) He talks about being Popeye, but it isn't until after Phil\nReeder, the crazy drunken sailor changes clothes with him at Belmont (and\nloses the glass eye) that he really becomes Popeye, complete with towering\nOlive Oyl (Robin Valor), Sweet Pea (Little Ozzie), and Bluto (Phil Reeder).\nIn addition to this, he is the magician Oz and a satyr.\n\nJames Stubb. Ozzie says his original name, \"Stubbe,\" means \"room.\" Which\ndoes not ring any bells for me, unless it points to \"Free as the\nHouse/Country of Oz\" thread.\n\nThree of the characters have something about their eyes. Three of the\ncharacters have Freudian fixations which are psychological explanations of\ntheir vices/character imbalances (Candy's gluttony; Ozzy's lust; Stubb's\ninability to feel).\n\n EYES FIXATION OZ CHARACTER\nCandy na Oral Dorothy?\nWitch contact lenses na Ozma?\nOzzy glass eye Genital Wizard Oz\nStubb glasses Anal Tin Woodman?\n\nI wonder if Candy is \"normal girl of Earth\" Dorothy to the Witch's Ozma\n\"sorcerer-princess of Oz\"? I make the tentative link between Stubb and Tin\nWoodman mainly because I think Stubb's \"hard boiled\" persona shows his\ninability to feel (the Tin man's problem) as well as the slighter details:\nStubb vaguely suggests to me something cut (like the stump of a felled\ntree); Stubb is the one who retrieves the axe after the accident in front\nof Free's house.\n\n=City of Oz under seige=\nTo fend off the demolition, each of the four does what he/she can. The\nwitch summons up a chthonic entity that stops the police from going around\nthe house to the back door (unless this is done by Free himself?), and so\nconfuses them that they break into the neighbor's house (Mrs. Baker's).\nCandy throws water, which first chases the cops away and then freezes on\nthe porch, turning it into a slippery trap; later she slicks herself up\nwith baby oil to inhibit their attempts to remove her from the house. Stubb\ntries calling all the politicians he knows, and this brings the tv news.\nBarnes is the one who calls in all the business men who mob Sergeant\nProudy, including: Mick Malloy (ex-cop, life insurance salesman); Steve\nMarshal (life insurance); Nate Glasser with P, E, G & D (investment\ncounselors); and Sim Sheppard (Florida real estate).\n\nNathanial Glasser is the one who wears blue-tinted spectacles (naturally).\nThis seems to be a clear pointer to the Emerald City of Oz, where everyone\nwears green spectacles. More specifically, it suggests the first man who\nis seen wearing these curious glasses: the Guardian of the Gates of Oz.\nAnd Nate Glasser is, in fact, a guardian of the portal of Free's house\n(pointing to \"Free as the House/City of Oz\").\n\nIn the first Oz book, the Army of Oz is a single soldier (wearing green\nspectacles). In the second book, iirc, Oz is overrun by an invading army,\na coalition of militants from each of the four member-states of Oz, and\nafter the Ozma restoration a more modern army of many generals and one\nprivate is established in Oz.\n\nThe fact that of the 100 or so businessmen there are four named suggests\ncomparison to the coalition army, and the fact that the Florida real estate\nsalesman has to wear beachcomber attire in winter shows that he represents\n\"the South,\" much as the coalition army is made up of members from North,\nSouth, East, and West, with the differences marked by a bit of color in\ntheir uniforms.\n\nThe fire axe which is used against the door of the house and later beans\nSergeant Proudy in the head, while it looks to be a normal axe, in the\nlandscape of Oz it can only belong to one figure: Nick Chopper, the Tin\nWoodman. (Not that Officer Williams, who was using the axe, is to be\nassociated with the Oz hero: as noted above, I begin to wonder if Jim Stubb\nis a version of Nick Chopper.)\n\nSo in FLF, the Oz elements emerge in such a way as to reinforce the notion\nthat Free's house is the land of Oz, or at least the Emerald City: only\nthis time the beseigers (cops and wrecking crew) are set apon by a\ncoalition army from four points of the compass (whereas in the second Oz\nbook the coalition army is laying seige to the city).\n\nAgain, I'm not an expert on Oz or Freud, so I stand by ready for\ncorrections on matters relating to either one or anything else.\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-12-11T06:46:50+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) FLF: the four and who/what they are", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "mantis wrote:\nCatharine Margaret Garth, aka Candy, is the massive (250+ pound) pale\nprostitute who wears white (a virginal color) which is sometimes (e.g., as\nshe is singing at the bar in the Consort hotel) mistaken for blue (blue and\nwhite being the colors of Mary, mother of Jesus, iirc). To escape from\nBelmont, the mental hospital, she has to put on the uniform of a black\nnurse (note the contrast); after which, since people assume she is a nurse,\nshe begins to act like one, and becomes a healer." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can't address the OZ stuff, so just a few notations. Pink is often\nmentioned in connection with Candy, especially her hands. She was wearing a\ngarish pink robe in the morning before she took Free to breakfast. She\nchanged into a pink sweater and black skirt. Her open-toed sandals were also\npink. FWIW." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wonder if Candy is \"normal girl of Earth\" Dorothy to the Witch's Ozma\n\"sorcerer-princess of Oz\"? I make the tentative link between Stubb and Tin\nWoodman mainly because I think Stubb's \"hard boiled\" persona shows his\ninability to feel (the Tin man's problem) as well as the slighter details:\nStubb vaguely suggests to me something cut (like the stump of a felled\ntree); Stubb is the one who retrieves the axe after the accident in front\nof Free's house." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I took his name to be related to his height. As in stubby. The \"hard boiled\"\npersona is straight out of old books/movies. IIRC, at one point Stubb even\nrecalls one such movie role played by Robert Mitchum. I don't see Stubb as\nhard boiled; he just doesn't wear his emotions on his sleeve. He is often\nsympathetic to people, especially Candy.\n\nAs for assigning OZ roles: there is one point, near the end of chapter 14,\nwhen Candy and Barnes are together in the hotel lobby, before they have ever\ngone up to Serpentina's room. She had just spoken to Stubb on the house\nphone. She said **to** Barnes: \"Seventh floor, room seventy-seven, Ozzie.\nWe're off to see the wizard.\" So how can Barnes be the wizard? Only the\nwitch and Stubb were up in the room.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-12-11T17:28:32+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) FLF: the four and who/what they are", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy wrote:\nI can't address the OZ stuff, so just a few notations. Pink is often\nmentioned in connection with Candy, especially her hands. She was wearing a\ngarish pink robe in the morning before she took Free to breakfast. She\nchanged into a pink sweater and black skirt. Her open-toed sandals were also\npink. FWIW." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good points. I took the pinkness of her fingers as pointers to her pale\nskin color. Her pink and black clothes were worn, iirc, when she was \"off\nduty.\" In any event, I believe there are strong connections between Candy\nand the color white, just as there are links between the witch and black." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Re Stubb, Roy wrote:\nI took his name to be related to his height. As in stubby." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure, that's there. I didn't mean to exclude it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The \"hard boiled\"\npersona is straight out of old books/movies. IIRC, at one point Stubb even\nrecalls one such movie role played by Robert Mitchum." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Odd thing about that movie: I couldn't find it using the very useful\nInternet Movie Database. Sure, Robert Mitchum shows up, but there is no\nmovie listed with him and \"Linda Loring,\" in fact, iirc, there is no\nlisting for a \"Linda Loring\" at all.\n\nFrom the notes in FLF, one might think that \"Hellcats of the Navy\" is about\nNaval pilots. It is about a submarine.\n\nI will agree that my accuracy was off in writing that Stubb has an\ninability to feel: after all, I previously wrote that he was choleric! To\nammend it, I would say that Stubb wants to have a \"heart,\" that is, he\nshould have feelings of a more positive, sanguinary nature; and this\nwanting to have a heart is a tenuous link to the Tin Man (who wants to have\nall feelings)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As for assigning OZ roles: there is one point, near the end of chapter 14,\nwhen Candy and Barnes are together in the hotel lobby, before they have ever\ngone up to Serpentina's room. She had just spoken to Stubb on the house\nphone. She said **to** Barnes: \"Seventh floor, room seventy-seven, Ozzie.\nWe're off to see the wizard.\" So how can Barnes be the wizard? Only the\nwitch and Stubb were up in the room." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are several references to the movies (including that one reference to\n\"The Wiz\"). In the case you cite, I think the points are: the witch is a\nmagic user; they are going to see her. (If the musical had contained a\nsong about visiting Glinda, a trip which happens in the book, iirc, maybe\nthey would have used that song.) The same song is used again, when they\nhave escaped from Belmont, Little Ozzie sings it to the group (Little\nOzzie, Big Ozzie, Nimo, Stubb, and Candy) and I don't think they are really\ngoing to see a wizard at that point, at all. (But I do wonder at how this\ngroup might map to Dorothy and her four companions, because Nimo seems to\npaint himself as the Scarecrow with his parody of the Scarecrow's song \"If\nI Only Had a Brain.\"\n\nDorothy: Candy\nScarecrow: Nimo the Clown\nTin Man: ?\nCowardly Lion:\nToto: ? )\n\nAs for Ozzie being the Wizard Oz (aside from the name, which is as obvious\nas stub = short). In the land of Oz there are two clear classes of magic:\nthere is real magic (practiced by the witches, Ozma, and others) and there\nis stage magic, i.e., fakery (practiced by Wizard Oz). While Ozzie's\nnovelties for sale are mainly pornographic items or toy puzzles, he does\nhave some of those \"practical joke\" tricks, like the sneezing powder that\ngoes off when Proudy grabs him (which causes him to sneeze and contributes\nto the accident with the axe: the axe-ident). This use of simple\ndime-store trickery is very much like Wizard Oz in DOROTHY AND THE WIZARD\nIN OZ.\n\nRe Ozma and Dorothy, I should point out the details of their hair: Ozma's\nhair is, I believe, dark and long (down her back); Dorothy's hair, contrary\nto the movie, is blonde and shoulder-length (true, it is in long braids for\nthe first book, but once Ozma is introduced [book 2], Dorothy's hair is as\nI reported above, afaik). A nice physical match for the crowning glories\nof the witch and Candy.\n\nA word about Sgt. Proudy: he is villainous not because he serves the\neviction notice but because he is a corrupt cop -- he bullies money out of\nCandy and hits her. There seems to be more corruption in the 13th\nPrecinct: that other cop is getting money out of Barney the loan shark.\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "2002-12-15T06:49:44+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) FLF: the four and who/what they are", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 5:46 PM -0800 12/10/02, Michael Andre-Driussi wrote:\nIn the first Oz book, the Army of Oz is a single soldier (wearing green\nspectacles). In the second book, iirc, Oz is overrun by an invading army,\na coalition of militants from each of the four member-states of Oz, and\nafter the Ozma restoration a more modern army of many generals and one\nprivate is established in Oz.\n\nThe fact that of the 100 or so businessmen there are four named suggests\ncomparison to the coalition army, and the fact that the Florida real estate\nsalesman has to wear beachcomber attire in winter shows that he represents\n\"the South,\" much as the coalition army is made up of members from North,\nSouth, East, and West, with the differences marked by a bit of color in\ntheir uniforms." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is rather late to respond to your message, mantis, but here goes anyway.\n\nAs I have said many times before, I have always found the Oz \nparallels in FLF to be rather superficial. Sure there are some \nreferences to the movie, but I have found all attempts to draw deeper \nparallels to be strained at best. Especially since Wolfe demonstrated \njust how thoroughly he could incorporate Oz lore in one of his \nstories in \"The Eyeflash Miracles.\"\n\nAnyway, you are thinking of General Jinjur's Army of Revolt (\"We are \nrevolting!\" \"You don't look it.\") in _The Marvelous Land of Oz_ by L. \nFrank Baum. In this book the Emerald City is conquered by an army of \ngirls (that is, young women). They are assured of victory because, as \nJinjur says, \"What man would oppose a girl, or dare to harm her? And \nthere is not an ugly face in my entire Army.\" And, just in case, they \nall have sharp knitting needles thrust in their hair, which they use \nto great effect as weapons.\n\nThese girls are from all four parts of the land of Oz, but Baum \nmentions this mainly, it seems, as as excuse to describe their \ncostumes in great detail. They wear green blouses and skirts that are \none quarter blue, yellow, red and purple. They also have four buttons \non their blouse of the same colors. The color of the front section of \nthe skirt and of the topmost button indicate which part of Oz the \nwearer comes from.\n\n(Baum may have been satirizing the women's suffrage movement; it is \nhard to be sure.)\n\nI don't think my information contradicts your theory, but it may \nweaken it, since the most important characteristic of the Army of \nRevolt was that it was made up of girls, not that it was a coalition \nfrom all \"four corners\" of the land of Oz." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "William Ansley\n\n-- " } ] } ] }