{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3665", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3665, "subject": "FLF: The planes", "messages": 3, "voices": 2, "first": "2002-12-11T21:27:25+00:00", "last": "2002-12-12T06:44:14+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-12-11T21:27:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FLF: The planes", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are some problems with both the _High Country_ and the B-17 that I\ncan't resolve. At the end of the book Free tells the four boarders that\nthere are two ways to leave the _High Country_, either the gizmo or the\nB-17. Use of the gizmo entails time-travel; the B-17 doesn't. There is no\ndoubt that when the four were put aboard the B-17 it was January 1983. Free\nalso makes reference to the fact that the year on board the _High Country_\nis the same as the year on the ground, or 1983. There is also no doubt that\nthe B-17 came from the W.W. II era, as did the crew. The crew's lack of\ncontemporary knowledge, their clothing, and their artifacts (guns,\ncigarettes) all point to the 1940s. Okay, but the problem is, how did the\nB-17 get from 1942 to 1982?\n\nJudging from the backdoor of Free's house, use of a gizmo involves passage\nthrough some sort of field in order for the person/object to be transported\nthrough time. In other words, when the gizmo on _High Country_ was used,\nneither the plane itself nor the other persons/objects on it were\ntransported. The _High Country_ got to 1982 the hard way, by flying\ncontinuously for forty years. When the B-17 appeared in November 1982, how\ndid it get there?\n\nImprobable as it may seem, the duffel-coated Whitten in 1982 seems to be\ntotally ignorant of the fact that the _High Country_, in that year, is\ncompletely abandoned and has been for many years. In fact, judging from the\ndates on papers the four found, and the globe which still showed many former\ncolonies as still being colonies, and the natural decay of fabrics and other\nitems, the plane seems to have been abandoned since the war years. After\nall, once the first use of the gizmo to travel to 1952 was successful, the\noriginal purpose for building the _High Country_ no longer mattered. All the\nfuture history books showed that the government powers were not and never\nhad been threatened. There was no reason for the powerful men to stay on the\nplane, so they didn't. The only purpose the plane then had was as a future\nstaging platform for the gizmo. The OSS wanted to go into the future to get\na jump on future gadgetry that might be useful to them in their operations.\n1982 was the year they chose to travel to and set up a base of operations,\nwhich is when and why Whitten bought the Flying Carpet. The orders that\nWhitten thought came from 'on high' didn't come from the plane, they were\nplanted by his future self, after he deserted.\n\nAt least, that's how I see it. But I can't explain the B-17.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-12-11T23:01:09+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) FLF: The planes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy wrote:\nThere are some problems with both the _High Country_ and the B-17 that I\ncan't resolve. At the end of the book Free tells the four boarders that\nthere are two ways to leave the _High Country_, either the gizmo or the\nB-17. Use of the gizmo entails time-travel; the B-17 doesn't. There is no\ndoubt that when the four were put aboard the B-17 it was January 1983. Free\nalso makes reference to the fact that the year on board the _High Country_\nis the same as the year on the ground, or 1983. There is also no doubt that\nthe B-17 came from the W.W. II era, as did the crew. The crew's lack of\ncontemporary knowledge, their clothing, and their artifacts (guns,\ncigarettes) all point to the 1940s. Okay, but the problem is, how did the\nB-17 get from 1942 to 1982?\n\nJudging from the backdoor of Free's house, use of a gizmo involves passage\nthrough some sort of field in order for the person/object to be transported\nthrough time. In other words, when the gizmo on _High Country_ was used,\nneither the plane itself nor the other persons/objects on it were\ntransported. The _High Country_ got to 1982 the hard way, by flying\ncontinuously for forty years. When the B-17 appeared in November 1982, how\ndid it get there?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When Buck Whitten brought his team from August 20, 1942 to November 5,\n1982, they came in the B-17.\n\nPresumably the gizmo on High Country can be set to project outside of the\nHigh Country as well as in a doorway (in the High Country or in Free's\nhouse). The B-17 then flies through the sky-door and into 1982.\n\n\"On the other hand, if _High Country_ or some successor . . . was still\nflying and we wanted to take something big home [to 1942], we could do that\nin the plane\" (ch. 59, 392).\n\nThus the HC gizmo can make a plane-size door, the little gizmo can make a\nman-size door.\n\nI hope this resolves your initial problem so we can move onto the next:\nwhat is the perspective from the flight-crew of the B-17? That is, those\ntwo guys (one Army, one Navy) seem to have had some experience in flying\nthrough time, and yet they have not lived in the 1980s, or if they have\nthey have not known it. If they are the original crew who flew in with\nBuck, then maybe they flew back to 1942 . . . otherwise they have been\nliving in 1982 for a couple of months (November 5 to January 22), under\nwraps by Buck & Co. (so they would not know they were in the 80s), but\nduring which time they would use up their Camel cigarettes and matches.\n\nThat is (and maybe this is just a refinement of your original problem): the\nB-17 seems to have come directly from 1942 specifically for this one\nmission, and to have gone back to 1942 right after. But this is not a\nproblem if the 1982 High Country gizmo is set to \"outdoor\" sky-door mode\nand the target year of 1942.\n\nThe reason this one plane and crew must be used for =all= traffic to and\nfrom High Country is plain.\n\nI note that the plane left after it dropped off the four. It might have\ngone back to 1942 (lessen the chance of time-contamination) or it might\nhave landed back in 1982 for simple refueling prior to going up again to\nget Ozzie Barnes, the one of the four who did not go through the indoor\ngizmo portal.\n\nAlso note: the three who went through the gizmo on High Country did not\nteleport to Free's house--instead they would have found themselves in the\nabandoned High Country of whatever year the gizmo is set to, and have to be\nferried down to the surface via B-17.\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-12-12T06:44:14+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) FLF: The planes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "mantis wrote:\nI hope this resolves your initial problem so we can move onto the next:\nwhat is the perspective from the flight-crew of the B-17? That is, those\ntwo guys (one Army, one Navy) seem to have had some experience in flying\nthrough time, and yet they have not lived in the 1980s, or if they have\nthey have not known it. If they are the original crew who flew in with\nBuck, then maybe they flew back to 1942 . . . otherwise they have been\nliving in 1982 for a couple of months (November 5 to January 22), under\nwraps by Buck & Co. (so they would not know they were in the 80s), but\nduring which time they would use up their Camel cigarettes and matches." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The crew does know when they are; they say so, and this is *after* they have\nde-coupled from HC and are gliding down to earth. The hypothetical projected\nfield of the gizmo must not have been turned on." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That is (and maybe this is just a refinement of your original problem): the\nB-17 seems to have come directly from 1942 specifically for this one\nmission, and to have gone back to 1942 right after. But this is not a\nproblem if the 1982 High Country gizmo is set to \"outdoor\" sky-door mode\nand the target year of 1942.\n\nThe reason this one plane and crew must be used for =all= traffic to and\nfrom High Country is plain." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, and it brings up another problem. See below." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I note that the plane left after it dropped off the four. It might have\ngone back to 1942 (lessen the chance of time-contamination) or it might\nhave landed back in 1982 for simple refueling prior to going up again to\nget Ozzie Barnes, the one of the four who did not go through the indoor\ngizmo portal.\n\nAlso note: the three who went through the gizmo on High Country did not\nteleport to Free's house--instead they would have found themselves in the\nabandoned High Country of whatever year the gizmo is set to, and have to be\nferried down to the surface via B-17." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And who gave the orders? Ignoring that, given that HC is abandoned, how\nwould the three have contacted the shuttle crew of whatever year they went\nto? They had to go to the past (HC couldn't keep aloft much longer; it was\naging badly), in order for them to merge with their earlier selves. They\ncouldn't go too far back; the women were only in their twenties.\n\nBut the bigger problem is Whitten's second disappearance. According to\nWolfe's timeline, Whitten vanished on Friday, January 14, 1983, when Free\nmade his last return to his house. Free was murdered on the following\nFriday, the 21st, and Whitten reappeared after a week's absence. Kip\nreported to Whitten after killing Free. Both she and Whitten were present at\nthe airfield later that night, after each of the boarders had undergone\ntheir 'trials'. The four talked to Whitten; he was there when they went\naboard the B-17. The shuttle reached HC about midnight. In the early-morning\nhours of Saturday, the 22nd of January, 1983, they spoke to 60-70-year-old\nFree in the cockpit of HC. He was already there, waiting for them. That's\nthe problem--how did he get there?\n\nSince there can't be two versions of the same person at the same time, for\nFree to have been present on HC on the 22nd, Whitten had to have vanished a\nsecond time *after* the B-17 took off. The timeline states that he did\nvanish, but doesn't explain how Free came to be aboard HC when the B-17 got\nthere. How could Free be both on HC and on the ground as Whitten? The\nobvious answer is that Free reached HC from another time, another shuttle\nflight, and arrived on HC only after the B-17 left the airfield with the\nfour boarders. He couldn't have been on HC while the four talked to Whitten\non the ground. And I don't think he got there *after* the four arrived; not\nenough time had passed since the four arrived for the shuttle to land and\nreturn to HC with another passenger. Besides, if Whitten had vanished again\nso soon, there would have been pandemonium on the ground. The trouble with\nthe obvious answer is Free's age.\n\nWhen Whitten deserted on the 24th, he was necessarily less than 60 years\nold. He was always clean-shaven. Free, according to Dr. Makee, sometimes was\nclean-shaven, sometimes had a beard. After he deserted the OSS, Whitten no\nlonger had free access to the gizmo on HC, or the cooperation of the\norganization. After spending so many years on the frontier, he had aged too\nmuch to ever go back to the OSS and resume his role as the general. That's\npart of what he meant about it being too late for him to use his \"ticket\"\nback to the HC. So, how did a bearded, 60-70-year-old Free ever get aboard a\nshuttle in another time to get up to the HC to meet the four boarders?\n\n-Roy" } ] } ] }