{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3668", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3668, "subject": "FLF: The 3 Whittens of 1983 (again)", "messages": 3, "voices": 2, "first": "2002-12-12T15:33:30+00:00", "last": "2002-12-13T01:07:24+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-12-12T15:33:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FLF: The 3 Whittens of 1983 (again)", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy wrote:\nThe crew does know when they are; they say so, and this is *after* they have\nde-coupled from HC and are gliding down to earth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One of them (Bob, the Army pilot?) asks where they are in time. The other\none (the Naval pilot) says they are in the 1980s, \"Pretty far up.\"\nPresumably this is from their briefing in 1942, or possibly they have\nfigured it out from various clues at the airport and from the passengers.\nStrong suggestion that they have not been idling for months at the airport\nin the 1980s." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The hypothetical projected\nfield of the gizmo must not have been turned on." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can't see how we could tell either way. If it is on and they have just\nflown through it, it would be as undetectable to them as walking through a\ndoorway is to a person on the ground. Passing through it would not erase\ntheir memory, I don't think, nor would it give them a new date stamp in\ntheir minds so they would know what year they were in.\n\nThey talk about ferrying diplomats, politicians, and millionaires. Because\nof the initial 1942-1952 project, their shuttle work was presumably almost\nentirely in this ten year period. That is, from 1942 to years 1943-1952.\nBut they also took Whitten & Co. to 1982." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And who gave the orders?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It would have to be the Whitten the four interview in HC." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ignoring that, given that HC is abandoned, how\nwould the three have contacted the shuttle crew of whatever year they went\nto?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They don't have to contact anyone: Whitten knows where in time the door\nleads. Whitten calls their taxi B-17 for them so that it takes off in 1942\nand arrives just in time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They had to go to the past (HC couldn't keep aloft much longer; it was\naging badly), in order for them to merge with their earlier selves. They\ncouldn't go too far back; the women were only in their twenties." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But the bigger problem is Whitten's second disappearance. According to\nWolfe's timeline, Whitten vanished on Friday, January 14, 1983, when Free\nmade his last return to his house. Free was murdered on the following\nFriday, the 21st, and Whitten reappeared after a week's absence. Kip\nreported to Whitten after killing Free. Both she and Whitten were present at\nthe airfield later that night, after each of the boarders had undergone\ntheir 'trials'. The four talked to Whitten; he was there when they went\naboard the B-17. The shuttle reached HC about midnight. In the early-morning\nhours of Saturday, the 22nd of January, 1983, they spoke to 60-70-year-old\nFree in the cockpit of HC. He was already there, waiting for them. That's\nthe problem--how did he get there?\n\nSince there can't be two versions of the same person at the same time, for\nFree to have been present on HC on the 22nd, Whitten had to have vanished a\nsecond time *after* the B-17 took off. The timeline states that he did\nvanish, but doesn't explain how Free came to be aboard HC when the B-17 got\nthere. How could Free be both on HC and on the ground as Whitten? The\nobvious answer is that Free reached HC from another time, another shuttle\nflight, and arrived on HC only after the B-17 left the airfield with the\nfour boarders. He couldn't have been on HC while the four talked to Whitten\non the ground. And I don't think he got there *after* the four arrived; not\nenough time had passed since the four arrived for the shuttle to land and\nreturn to HC with another passenger. Besides, if Whitten had vanished again\nso soon, there would have been pandemonium on the ground. The trouble with\nthe obvious answer is Free's age.\n\nWhen Whitten deserted on the 24th, he was necessarily less than 60 years\nold. He was always clean-shaven. Free, according to Dr. Makee, sometimes was\nclean-shaven, sometimes had a beard. After he deserted the OSS, Whitten no\nlonger had free access to the gizmo on HC, or the cooperation of the\norganization. After spending so many years on the frontier, he had aged too\nmuch to ever go back to the OSS and resume his role as the general. That's\npart of what he meant about it being too late for him to use his \"ticket\"\nback to the HC. So, how did a bearded, 60-70-year-old Free ever get aboard a\nshuttle in another time to get up to the HC to meet the four boarders?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On December 3, I wrote a tentative section of timeline:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "1983 -- Whitten (age 53?) deserts, becomes Ben Free. [Jan 24]\n\n1807-1818 -- Ben Free lives in the frontier (ageing 7 years in 11 years?),\nwith vacations in 1979-1982.\n\n1983 -- Ben Free/Whitten interviewed in High Country by the four?\n\n1803 -- Ben Free \"aged 60 but looks younger\" joins the Lewis & Clark\nexpedition (1804-1806).\n\n1806 -- At the end of the expedition (all in realtime, so age = age+3),\nFree travels to 1819.\n\n1819 -- Free gathers up his treasures and leaves for 1983.\n\n1983 -- Free arrives/Whitten disappears (another alloying for Free?) [Jan 14]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have also described two time-travel circuits: the one on the ground for\n1803-1983 (using the portable gizmo, sometimes in the house) and the one in\nthe air for 1942-1983.\n\nLet's say that biological-age 60 Whitten wants to go to the interview. He\nstrolls from 1818 to any year he choses to set on the portable gizmo: why\nnot December 1942 (implosion-free zone)? He enters the world of 1942 at\nthe same location he had in 1818 and then makes his way to the (an)\nairport. Phones in the command to shuttle an old guy up to HC. Gets on\nthe B-17, rides up to HC. At HC he sets the gizmo for 1983. Walks through\nand enters HC in 1983.\n\nI'm not sure where the text supports your claim that:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "After he deserted the OSS, Whitten no\nlonger had free access to the gizmo on HC, or the cooperation of the\norganization." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is tricky to block a guy for deserting when he has gone back through\ntime. If Kip and Robin are in on it, they wouldn't pass any information to\ndeny Whitten access. (I don't think we have any clue as to where in time\nKip and Robin and the other members of the team end up.)\n\nWhitten age 53 knew that some unauthorized time-tripping was going on and\nfeared mischief or sabotage within the organization: the principal suspect\nbecame the mysterious Ben Free. Whitten then learned he would/will become\nBen Free, with the further implication that he would be doing all the shady\ntime-tripping.\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-12-12T21:56:07+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) FLF: The 3 Whittens of 1983 (again)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "mantis quoted and wrote:\nRoy wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The crew does know when they are; they say so, and this is *after* they\nhave\nde-coupled from HC and are gliding down to earth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One of them (Bob, the Army pilot?) asks where they are in time. The other\none (the Naval pilot) says they are in the 1980s, \"Pretty far up.\"\nPresumably this is from their briefing in 1942, or possibly they have\nfigured it out from various clues at the airport and from the passengers.\nStrong suggestion that they have not been idling for months at the airport\nin the 1980s." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The hypothetical projected\nfield of the gizmo must not have been turned on." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I can't see how we could tell either way. If it is on and they have just\nflown through it, it would be as undetectable to them as walking through a\ndoorway is to a person on the ground. Passing through it would not erase\ntheir memory, I don't think, nor would it give them a new date stamp in\ntheir minds so they would know what year they were in." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They were warming up the plane's engines at the time the four were being\ncollected at the airfield (end of ch. 51, beginning of ch. 54). So, the crew\nstarted out from 1983, and they had to know it. The airfield was adjacent to\nthe airport; the jetliners taking off and landing were a dead give-away.\nBesides, we know that they had to stay in 1983 to pick up Barnes, which they\ndid." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Let's say that biological-age 60 Whitten wants to go to the interview. He\nstrolls from 1818 to any year he choses to set on the portable gizmo: why\nnot December 1942 (implosion-free zone)? He enters the world of 1942 at\nthe same location he had in 1818 and then makes his way to the (an)\nairport. Phones in the command to shuttle an old guy up to HC. Gets on\nthe B-17, rides up to HC. At HC he sets the gizmo for 1983. Walks through\nand enters HC in 1983." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That won't work. The \"biological-age 60 Whitten\", who looks younger than\nthat, has necessarily already deserted. He went to 1803 and the Lewis &\nClark expedition. The 60-70 year old Free (who looked so much like the 82\nyear old that the four knew that they immediately recognized him) who\nconducted the cockpit interview didn't know where his younger self went--he\nonly *hoped* he had joined L. & C. I'm so confused." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure where the text supports your claim that:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "After he deserted the OSS, Whitten no\nlonger had free access to the gizmo on HC, or the cooperation of the\norganization." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It just stands to reason that the organization wasn't going to help the\nrenegade they were looking for." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is tricky to block a guy for deserting when he has gone back through\ntime. If Kip and Robin are in on it, they wouldn't pass any information to\ndeny Whitten access. (I don't think we have any clue as to where in time\nKip and Robin and the other members of the team end up.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think Kip was in on it. It was Whitten's disappearance that set her\noff to find and murder Free. She wanted her daddy back at any cost, even if\nit meant killing his older self. I don't see her having a change of heart\nthree days later. Whitten didn't just leave, he *deserted*. That was his\nsecond disappearance *after* Free was killed. She would assume his desertion\nwas just another disappearance attributable to the time-traveling monkey\nbusiness of the mysterious renegade known as Ben Free. At least that's how I\nsee it.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-12-13T01:07:24+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) FLF: The 3 Whittens of 1983 (again)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Roy quoted me and wrote:\nLet's say that biological-age 60 Whitten wants to go to the interview. He\nstrolls from 1818 to any year he choses to set on the portable gizmo: why\nnot December 1942 (implosion-free zone)? He enters the world of 1942 at\nthe same location he had in 1818 and then makes his way to the (an)\nairport. Phones in the command to shuttle an old guy up to HC. Gets on\nthe B-17, rides up to HC. At HC he sets the gizmo for 1983. Walks through\nand enters HC in 1983." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That won't work. The \"biological-age 60 Whitten\", who looks younger than\nthat, has necessarily already deserted. He went to 1803 and the Lewis &\nClark expedition. The 60-70 year old Free (who looked so much like the 82\nyear old that the four knew that they immediately recognized him) who\nconducted the cockpit interview didn't know where his younger self went--he\nonly *hoped* he had joined L. & C. I'm so confused." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My timeline fragment shows that the 53-year-old deserter did =not= go\nstraight back to 1803, he went back to 1807. Maybe he did this to\nacclimitize himself to 19th century life before going on the 1803\nexpedition.\n\nI suspect that HC interview Whitten is the one who is about to go to 1803,\nafter having lived 7 years of experience in 1807-1818 (with vacations in\n1979-1982).\n\nThat is, the three Whittens of 1983 are:\n\n1) Buck Whitten (age 53) duffle coat/prior to desertion.\n\n2)Free Whitten (age 60-something) High Country interview/years after\ndesertion but still prior to Lewis & Clark.\n\n3) Ben Free (age 80-something?) after Lewis & Clark, with cataracts and\nshot dead in 1983." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm not sure where the text supports your claim that:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "After he deserted the OSS, Whitten no\nlonger had free access to the gizmo on HC, or the cooperation of the\norganization." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It just stands to reason that the organization wasn't going to help the\nrenegade they were looking for." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It is tricky to block a guy for deserting when he has gone back through\ntime. If Kip and Robin are in on it, they wouldn't pass any information to\ndeny Whitten access. (I don't think we have any clue as to where in time\nKip and Robin and the other members of the team end up.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think Kip was in on it. It was Whitten's disappearance that set her\noff to find and murder Free. She wanted her daddy back at any cost, even if\nit meant killing his older self. I don't see her having a change of heart\nthree days later. Whitten didn't just leave, he *deserted*. That was his\nsecond disappearance *after* Free was killed. She would assume his desertion\nwas just another disappearance attributable to the time-traveling monkey\nbusiness of the mysterious renegade known as Ben Free. At least that's how I\nsee it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But Roy, if I understand it correctly, Whitten is the one (and likely the\n=only= one) who detected some shadowy time-travel going on: people were\ndisappearing from HC, and he figured they were travelling one-way to places\nwhere the gizmo did not exist (pre-1942, post-198n). There is no Chief at\nOSS HQ who said, \"Buck, go into tomorrow and find the renegade! We will\nlock down everything the moment you leave and we expect you back a\nhalf-hour later, even if the job takes you decades.\" Whitten & team\ntravelled to 1982 in order to get technological goodies (\"Dick Tracy\" stuff\nto them) for their own organization. Buck Whitten is the chief\ninvestigator in the field, in the future. Buck Whitten is also the master\ntime-traveller. When Buck discovers that he himself will become Ben Free,\nwe know from the other example (his first folding in 1942) he is not one to\ntry and mess with history.\n\nAnd the organization isn't looking for a renegade, as far as I can tell.\n\nIf your guess about stranding all the other team members in 1983 is\ncorrect, even better: how would OSS High Command 1942 ever find out who the\nrenegade was? The information cannot travel against the timestream.\nOddities show up in realtime, just like before, with more people coming and\nmainly going than Whitten can account for (July/August 1942? His headcount\nof HC in 1952?), until he assembles the team and goes to 1982, two days\nafter his supposed trip to 1952 (he did not really go the second time) . . .\n\nYes, it is circular. Of course!\n\n=mantis=" } ] } ] }