{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3683", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3683, "subject": "Another Banggnab?", "messages": 3, "voices": 2, "first": "2002-12-17T15:49:20+00:00", "last": "2002-12-18T23:22:56+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-12-17T15:49:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Another Banggnab?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'll take a stab at marc's mystery. This is wholly speculative. I don't \nhave a secret communication from Gene, and I don't have evidence from the text.\n We know that Briah is but one cycle of the overall sequence of \nBanggnabs.\n Is it possible that Blue-Green is Urth-Lune in another Banggnab?\n Is it possible that Silk is the Conciliator of this Banggnab, and \nthat is why he has a link with Severian?\n Does this account for the similarities and differences between the \ntwo?\n Well, maybe. And Wolfe does think BIG as well as small. Consider \nthe smallness of the commonwealth and the hugeness of the Yesod-Briah \nuniverse around it. Viron is also small, but there is a Yesod-Briah \nuniverse around it also, but maybe not the same one.\n Are Neighbors parallel to heiros (or whatever)? Have they gone to \ntheir Yesod? Are they the angelic superintendents of this Banggnab?\n Of course this raises questions, such as how the Whorl made this \ntrip, and whether astral travel back to Urth is time-travel or some kind of \nparallel-universe travel.\n Now as for smart cannibal trees, I can see one possibility: The \nJungle Garden, which is textually linked with Inire's fish-producing mirror \nin *Shadow.* The missionary hut is among these trees. Are these smart trees \nthat are being influenced by the missionary?\n I should look back at these chapters. There is a whole microcosm \nhere, with \"waters under the earth\" that harbor the dead, etc. Hey! Is this \na slice of Silk's Banggnab inside of Severian's Banggnab?\n Which brings up Inire's mirror. The mirror is a symbol for contact \nwith God/Heaven in the Bible (1 Cor. 13:12). The mirror brings a fish at \none point, and shortly thereafter Agia makes the only reference to the \nTheoanthropos in the whole five Severian books; and it opens to show a \ncherub to Severian later on. It seems to contact the Super Universe beyond \nall of Briah and Yesod, the Heaven that is above all Banggnabs.\n Did the Whorl pass through such a mirror, and enter another Banggnab?\n Is the underground lake a form of the mirror, leading to the realm \nof the dead?\n Consider Inire's mirror as the firmament over the earth, \ninterfacing with what is ultimately above, and the lake as a firmament \nunder it, leading down.\n Hey! Is Silk's enlightenment the point at which the Whorl passes \nthrough the firmament into heaven, and then back into a new Banggnab? Ah, \nwell if Silk et al. have been through the firmament on the way to \nBlue-green, then they can astrally travel back through it to Urth-lune to \nthe equivalent point in time in the earlier or later Banggnab.\n Or maybe better, the Whorl only contacted the mirror-firmament \nslightly, so that only Silk was enlightened, for that was all the Outsider \nwanted. Then it bounced back into another Banggnab. But since Silk has made \nthis trip once, he can go back to the Urth Banggnab in his astral travels, \nand take the rest with him.\n Oh well, this has been fun. If its even partly right, marc, then \nyou OWE IT TO ME to say so.\n\nNutria the Bold\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-12-17T16:05:45+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Another Banggnab?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But Nutria,\n Gene said Typhon was aiming at Blue-Green. Doesn't that mean \nBluegreen is in the same Banggnab?\n Yeah. But maybe Typhon really was aiming at Urth-Lune after the \ncoming flood. He's set the people up to worship a two-headed god. He keeps \nhis second head while he sleeps on the highest mountain he can find, hoping \nto pass through the coming flood. Then he'll awaken, greet the Whorl, \nbecome a god, and rebuild his space empire.\n Maybe.\n Meanwhile, Typhon gets killed, so there go his plans.\n And the Whorl returns to Urth-lune, but in a different Banggnab.\n\nNutria the Secondguesser" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 09:49 AM 12/17/2002, you wrote:\nI'll take a stab at marc's mystery. This is wholly speculative. I don't \nhave a secret communication from Gene, and I don't have evidence from the text.\n We know that Briah is but one cycle of the overall sequence of \nBanggnabs.\n Is it possible that Blue-Green is Urth-Lune in another Banggnab?\n Is it possible that Silk is the Conciliator of this Banggnab, and \nthat is why he has a link with Severian?\n Does this account for the similarities and differences between \nthe two?\n Well, maybe. And Wolfe does think BIG as well as small. Consider \nthe smallness of the commonwealth and the hugeness of the Yesod-Briah \nuniverse around it. Viron is also small, but there is a Yesod-Briah \nuniverse around it also, but maybe not the same one.\n Are Neighbors parallel to heiros (or whatever)? Have they gone to \ntheir Yesod? Are they the angelic superintendents of this Banggnab?\n Of course this raises questions, such as how the Whorl made this \ntrip, and whether astral travel back to Urth is time-travel or some kind \nof parallel-universe travel.\n Now as for smart cannibal trees, I can see one possibility: The \nJungle Garden, which is textually linked with Inire's fish-producing \nmirror in *Shadow.* The missionary hut is among these trees. Are these \nsmart trees that are being influenced by the missionary?\n I should look back at these chapters. There is a whole microcosm \nhere, with \"waters under the earth\" that harbor the dead, etc. Hey! Is \nthis a slice of Silk's Banggnab inside of Severian's Banggnab?\n Which brings up Inire's mirror. The mirror is a symbol for \ncontact with God/Heaven in the Bible (1 Cor. 13:12). The mirror brings a \nfish at one point, and shortly thereafter Agia makes the only reference \nto the Theoanthropos in the whole five Severian books; and it opens to \nshow a cherub to Severian later on. It seems to contact the Super \nUniverse beyond all of Briah and Yesod, the Heaven that is above all Banggnabs.\n Did the Whorl pass through such a mirror, and enter another Banggnab?\n Is the underground lake a form of the mirror, leading to the \nrealm of the dead?\n Consider Inire's mirror as the firmament over the earth, \ninterfacing with what is ultimately above, and the lake as a firmament \nunder it, leading down.\n Hey! Is Silk's enlightenment the point at which the Whorl passes \nthrough the firmament into heaven, and then back into a new Banggnab? Ah, \nwell if Silk et al. have been through the firmament on the way to \nBlue-green, then they can astrally travel back through it to Urth-lune to \nthe equivalent point in time in the earlier or later Banggnab.\n Or maybe better, the Whorl only contacted the mirror-firmament \nslightly, so that only Silk was enlightened, for that was all the \nOutsider wanted. Then it bounced back into another Banggnab. But since \nSilk has made this trip once, he can go back to the Urth Banggnab in his \nastral travels, and take the rest with him.\n Oh well, this has been fun. If its even partly right, marc, then \nyou OWE IT TO ME to say so.\n\nNutria the Bold\n\nNutria\n\n\n--" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-12-18T23:22:56+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Another Banggnab?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- James Jordan wrote:\nI'll take a stab at marc's mystery. This is wholly speculative. I don't \nhave a secret communication from Gene, and I don't have evidence from\nthe text.\n We know that Briah is but one cycle of the overall sequence of \nBanggnabs." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've wondered about this in connection with the discrepancies\nbetween Severian's account of Merryn in New Sun and one of the twins'\nin Short Sun. (Why doesn't Severian tell us he'd met Merryn before?\nIn RttW he resolves not to tell us the Silkhorn incident, but he could\nstill have said he'd met Merryn before, when he needed help from a\nwitch or something like that.) Is it possible that the Severian in\nRttW is from another \"kalpa\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Is it possible that Blue-Green is Urth-Lune in another\nBanggnab?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But now you have \"astral\" travel between Banggnabs? Well, I guess\nthat's how Wolfe got the manuscripts of these books.\n\n[snip lots of other interesting stuff]\n\nAnd now I have to unsubscribe from this list and the other one I'm\non so I can devote more time to other things, such as my job. (Oh,\nright, they're paying me to work!) But thanks to you all for lots\nof fascinating thoughts! I may stop by to see whether THE SOLUTION\nto the BotSS has been posted.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] } ] }