{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3686", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3686, "subject": "Silk out of time / Blushas? Grushas?", "messages": 5, "voices": 5, "first": "2002-12-18T10:06:45+00:00", "last": "2002-12-19T06:12:16+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "ArchD'Ikon Zibethicus", "address": "zibethicus at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2002-12-18T10:06:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk out of time / Blushas? Grushas?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "why couldn't Marble's clock be correct?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "3. Marble is absolutely decrepit. I find it hard to believe that an\nadvanced chem capable of self-repair and engaged in only mildly strenuous \nactivity would decay so soon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Pardon my obtuseness, but is it anywhere specified that Marble's memories of \nher life as a secular chem are located on the Whorl? She might have had an \nearlier life on Urth, as did many people who were forced aboard.\n\nNutria:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Time did not \"stop\" for anyone. Silk had an transcendent moment, and > the \nonly way a temporal being can understand such a thing afterwards > is to \nsort it out into various pieces and temporal events." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, when trying to establish these matters with some sort of \ndefinitiveness, I believe that an ounce of study of the actual text in \nquestion can sometimes be worth a ton of theorising in one direction or \nanother. For that reason, allow me to quote briefly from NLS Ch1 (are there \nstandard abbrevations for titles here?); during his enlightenment, Pa. Silk \n\"watched outside a clockwork show whose works had stopped\", and saw (among \nother things):\n\n\"- dead Patera Pike mumbling prayers as he slit the throat of a speckled \nrabbit he himself had bought.\"\n\nThis seems to me to represent a vison or perception of a moment in Pa. \nPike's past life, rather than the appearences of his shade elsewhere in the \nbook.\n\nIf this is the case, it would tend to support Nutria's perception of the \nexperience as a transcendent - or transtemporal - one for Silk himself, \nrather than a stoppage of time for the entire Whorl, as _Silk_ is being \nshown things from various strands of time, the past and possible the future. \n That's how I read it, anyway...\n\nAlso;" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is it possible that Blue-Green is Urth-Lune in another Banggnab? Is it \npossible that Silk is the Conciliator of this Banggnab, and that is why he \nhas a link with Severian?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of course this raises questions, such as how the Whorl made this trip, and \nwhether astral travel back to Urth is time-travel or some kind of \nparallel-universe travel." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course such a thing is _possible_, but I don't myself know just how \n_probable_ it is. I base this opinion especially on IGJ Ch22, 'The Barbican \nand the Bear Tower', which relates the visit/return of Horn/Incanto's party \nto Nessus. Duko Rigoglio is one of those inhabitants of Nessus who were \nforced to board the Whorl. He returns to the street outside his house \nbecause of his emotional attraction to the spot (as I understand it). \nThroughout the chapter, it becomes obvious that the spot has aged greatly \nsince the Duko lived there; the party guess anywhere from 1 900 to 2 500 \nyears.\n\nIf what is involved in this sort of non-physical travel (call it 'astral' if \nyou _must_) is a passage from one BangGnab to another, why would there be a \nlinear progression in the local timeframe of Nessus? It seems to me that \nsomething altogether more intricate is involved here...\n\nIf this amount of time has elapsed since Rigoglio's involuntary departure, \nhow does it synchronise with the general consenus that the Whorl has been \ntravelling for three hundred years? And, further, this visit of the party \nto Nessus occurs some years before Severian brings the New Sun, which \ndestroys Nessus and all else. If Rigoglio was abducted during the reign of \nTyphon, is it possible that he was kept in storage on Urth somewhere for an \nappropriate period of time?\n\nIt would appear likely that the lapse of time in Nessus as experienced by \nRigoglio on his return actually corresponds (in Urth time) to the period for \nwhich he has been gone on the Whorl. Otherwise, why have the elapsation at \nall?\n\nBlattid (tip o' the hat to archy!):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"You may be right about this, and certainly I would not go\nso far as to say that you were wrong, but still ...!\" (Place\n_that_ quote for double credit.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mundus vult decipi!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What makes me think that Silk's experience has some kind of\ninternal sequentiality: he has the sense of someone (the\nOutsider) speaking into both his ears. Now, I may simply put too much \nemphasis on that detail, but it seems to me that\nspeech has a kind of inherent sequentiality to it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of course, this may simply mean that he _remembers_ it that way." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Moreover, it occurs in an instant in the middle of the prosaic activity of a \nball game, which is not interrupted by it. I suspect that Mr. Wolfe is \nrelating something corresponding to the classic 'mystical' experience, which \noccurs _outside_ time rather than as a consequence of time somehow \n'stopping'. Mr. Wolfe specifies that what Silk retains of the experience \nwhich he can consciously relate is far smaller and less profound that the \ntotality of the experience as it was originally granted to him. Whether he \nrelates it sequentially, or whether it occurs sequentially, it is impossible \nto explain it in a fashion conformant to its nature, which is, if you like, \nsuperhuman. It certainly doesn't resemble the experience of an embolism!\n\n*\n\n4WIW, I read a long I/V with Mr. Wolfe shortly before I joined this forum, \nin which he said something to the effect that _all_ the 'clues' were present \nin the books, but that they were only placed there _once_, as he didn't \nintend to insult the intelligence of his readers. Something like that, \nanyway. I would tend to the view that, which I would of course be greatly \ninterested to hear anything which Mr. Wolfe had to say concerning the \nplanning and nature of his works, he is a skilled professional author, who \ninserted everything necessary to have his works understood TO THE EXTENT TO \nWHICH HE INTENDED in the works themselves. Therefore, I support the call to \ncloser textual study of works which are being theorised about...speaking as \na hypocrite, to be sure!\n\nZibethicus the Lame (thus named by a fellow New Sun reader!)\n\nPS: While I'm here, my copy of RTW (Return to the Whorl), the TOR paperback, \nis absolutely crammed with the most annoying typos throughout. I've got \nforty-something markers in it to that effect - I just counted it. Is this \njust my experience, perhaps because I was reading it aloud, or has anybody \nelse noticed it?\n\n->Zx<-\n\n" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-12-18T16:19:09+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Silk out of time / Blushas? Grushas?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Snipping wildly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The ArchD'Ikon wrote:\n\"- dead Patera Pike mumbling prayers as he slit the throat of \na speckled rabbit he himself had bought.\"\n\nThis seems to me to represent a vison or perception of a \nmoment in Pa. Pike's past life, rather than the appearences\nof his shade elsewhere in the book." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Correct. A few pages later, when he explains to Blood that\nhe is the help sent in response to Pa. Pike's prayers, Silk\nbegins by saying that he saw Pike praying for help to save\nthe manteion. This would be the experience of seeing that, \nof seeing what is clearly a moment in the \"temporal\" past, \nrelative to the \"temporal\" moment in which Silk's timeline \nis interrupted by the \"eternal\" experience of enlightenment.\n\nI don't think this is even open to reasonable debate; it's\nabout as clear as anything anywhere in Wolfe.\n\n[more snippage]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Throughout the chapter, it becomes obvious that the spot has \naged greatly since the Duko lived there; the party guess\nanywhere from 1 900 to 2 500 years." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[...]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If this amount of time has elapsed since Rigoglio's \ninvoluntary departure, how does it synchronise with the\ngeneral consenus that the Whorl has been travelling for\nthree hundred years? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Relativistically, of course.\n\nThe duration of the Whorl's voyage _to an observer aboard\nthe Whorl_ is 300 years. The duration to an observer at\nrest relative to Urth's system is on the order of one or\ntwo millenia ... from the time of the Tyrant to the time\nof Severian." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Blattid (tip o' the hat to archy!):" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "thank boss" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"You may be right about this, and certainly I would not go\nso far as to say that you were wrong, but still ...!\" (Place _that_ \nquote for double credit.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mundus vult decipi!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Clearly a man of taste, if not in fact a \"monstrous clever\nfellow.\"\n\n\nRegarding the question of whether Silk's enlightenment has any\nsubjective sequence or duration to him as it occurs ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "... it occurs in an instant in the middle of the prosaic\nactivity of a ball game, which is not interrupted by it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right. We agree, I presume, that it takes no \"objective\" time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I suspect that Mr. Wolfe is relating something corresponding\nto the classic 'mystical' experience, which occurs _outside_\ntime rather than as a consequence of time somehow 'stopping'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, Mr Wolfe hsa gone so far as to state openly that it is a\npurely supernatural experience (leaving Crane's \"embolism\" \ntheory kind of high and dry)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mr. Wolfe specifies that what Silk retains of the experience \nwhich he can consciously relate is far smaller and less \nprofound that the totality of the experience as it was\noriginally granted to him. Whether he relates it sequentially,\nor whether it occurs sequentially, it is impossible to explain\nit in a fashion conformant to its nature, which is, if you like, \nsuperhuman. It certainly doesn't resemble the experience of \nan embolism!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Never having experienced an embolism myself, I can't say.\n\nBut what we also have to remember is that the account we possess\nis _at least_ a third-order abstraction from the event: the\nminimum set of abstractings involved include (1) Silk's remembering\nthe event, (2) Silk's attempt(s) to relate the event to others,\nincluding Horn and/or Nettle, and (3) Horn's and Nettle's attempt \nto work backwards from (2) to the event and narrate it in their \nBook of Silk. \n\nGiven all this, I think that the most we can say of the \"real\"\nevent (somehow I feel no shame in describing a fictional event\nthis way ...) is that Silk had a mystical and life-changing \nexperience of some sort, which he referred to as \"enlightenment,\" \nin which he learned a certain amount of information to which he \nhad not previously had access. (I am inclined to analogize it to\nthe experience of \"gnosis,\" because of my perception that the\n_Whorl_ is a physical instantiation or representation of (one) \nclassical gnostic view of the universe, embedded in the larger\nLupiverse in which orthodox Catholic Christianity is, more or \nlesse, defined as \"true\"; but I won't insist on that.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "4WIW, I read a long I/V with Mr. Wolfe shortly before I \njoined this forum, in which he said something to the effect\nthat _all_ the 'clues' were present in the books, but that\nthey were only placed there _once_, as he didn't intend to\ninsult the intelligence of his readers. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah. Sometimes I think Mr Wolfe genuinely fails to understand\nthat most of us simply aren't as intelligent as he is ... " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I would tend to the view that [...] he is a skilled \nprofessional author, who inserted everything necessary\nto have his works understood TO THE EXTENT TO WHICH HE\nINTENDED in the works themselves. Therefore, I support\nthe call to closer textual study of works which are\nbeing theorised about..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Amen unto this, for those who have time. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "PS: While I'm here, my copy of RTW (Return to the Whorl), the \nTOR paperback, is absolutely crammed with the most annoying typos \nthroughout. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is true of the H/C also. It's incredibly badly porfread." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Geller", "address": "dclxvi at dclxvi.best.vwh.net" }, "date": "2002-12-18T16:55:05+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Silk out of time / Blushas? Grushas?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 18 Dec 2002, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nRegarding the question of whether Silk's enlightenment has any\nsubjective sequence or duration to him as it occurs ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "... it occurs in an instant in the middle of the prosaic\nactivity of a ball game, which is not interrupted by it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Right. We agree, I presume, that it takes no \"objective\" time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It happens at right angles to Silk's normal timeline.\n\nWe are three dimensional creatures moving involuntarily in a fourth\ndimension. This motion, and this dimension are seen as time. The\nplenum we inhabit is thus four dimensional (three spacelike and two\ntimelike dimensions). This is embedded within a plenum that consists of\nthese four, one other spacelike and one other timelike dimension, and a\nseventh dimension within which creatures of this order are in involuntary\nmotion. This is 'time for them' ('them' are the creatures that I generally\nrefer to as \"angels or small-g gods\"). Mr Big Nose, of course, is beyond\nthis level as much as he is beyond our level.\n\nSilk's timeline has been turned 90 degrees.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Timothy Reilly", "address": "treilly at ozemail.com.au" }, "date": "2002-12-19T01:34:58+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Silk out of time / Blushas? Grushas?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "PS: While I'm here, my copy of RTW (Return to the Whorl), the\nTOR paperback, is absolutely crammed with the most annoying typos\nthroughout." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is the most irritating thing about RTTW, although Pig's silly voices\nand the astral travel back to interfere in the plot of the TBNS are up there\ntoo. Several people, including me, commented upon it when the book first\ncame out in hardcover. I am surprised Tor don't have the wherewithal to get\nit right the first time, and doubly surprised that they don't fix it up in\nthe paperback.\n\nDoes anyone know if the Mint/Marble (IIRC) mix up at the end of TBLS ever\ngot fixed in subsequent editions?\n\nTim" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Don Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-12-19T06:12:16+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Silk out of time / Blushas? Grushas?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"ArchD'Ikon Zibethicus\" \nTo: \nSent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 2:06 AM\nSubject: (urth) Silk out of time / Blushas? Grushas?\nDon:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "why couldn't Marble's clock be correct?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "3. Marble is absolutely decrepit. I find it hard to believe that an\nadvanced chem capable of self-repair and engaged in only mildly strenuous\nactivity would decay so soon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Pardon my obtuseness, but is it anywhere specified that Marble's memories\nof\nher life as a secular chem are located on the Whorl? She might have had\nan\nearlier life on Urth, as did many people who were forced aboard." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No pardon necessary since these I believe are Jeff's comments rather than\nmine. I mean, I know they're not mine and I think they're Jeff's. We are\nin accord.\n\nDon the clarifier, unifier, tribune of the plebs, layabout, roustabout, wave\nslider, nonsense writer Doggett, Junior" } ] } ] }