Subject: (urth) Jack Vance or There are Doors?

From: cilluff1 at optonline.net <cilluff1 at optonline.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 17:23:26 +0000

Hello, all.  I was looking for any opinions here, I am just about to finish
RTTW, and was looking next either to read Jack Vance's Tales of the Dying
Earth or Wolfe's There are Doors.  I'm intrigued as to the Vance work to
see how it influenced the Urth novels, but have never read any Vance
before.  I also have never read any Wolfe other than the Urth/LS/SS cycle,
so don't know what to expect from There are Doors.  Any recommendations or
views on these books from the list?

-- Joe

p.s. As to Vironese signoff names I'm leaning towards Shell, which I think
would make me a male Chem if I'm not mistaken.  My last name, Cilluffo, is
Sicilian and has no direct translation but I've been told is similar to and
may be a derivation of the Greek word for shell (although I know no Greek,
it is all Greek to me as they say!).  I hope this isn't taken?

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .

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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <ddanehy at siebel.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 17:25:11 +0000

> p.s. As to Vironese signoff names I'm leaning towards Shell, 
> which I think would make me a male Chem if I'm not mistaken.  

No, shells are animal parts or products, and so "Shell" would 
be a male bio's name.

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From: cilluff1 at optonline.net <cilluff1 at optonline.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 18:02:02 +0000

be a male bio's name>>>

Joe/Shell responds, smacking himself in the forehead with the palm of his
hand:

I guess you are right!  Animal by-products (Silk, Blood, Horn) are bio
names, how did that slip my mind?  I'm glad for the clarification,
especially as I don't want to be a chem... : )  

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From: James Wynn <crushtv at hotpop.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 19:52:27 +0000

Shell declares:

Crush interjects:
You'll never make the Ayuntamiento with that kind of attitude.

-- Crush

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From: cilluff1 at optonline.net <cilluff1 at optonline.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 20:06:03 +0000

Crush admonishes:

You'll never make the Ayuntamiento with that kind of attitude.>>

True, I need to start spraypainting "Shell for Calde" all over town! : )

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From: Michael Andre-Driussi <mantis at siriusfiction.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 20:47:20 +0000

Joe wrote:
>Earth or Wolfe's There are Doors.

If you decide to read THERE ARE DOORS then let me know: I'll reread it and
you will have someone to talk to.

(It is next on my list, anyway.)

=mantis=

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From: Jeff Veyera <teflon93 at cox.net>
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 01:45:22 +0000

I just finished reading There Are Doors.  I found it to be pretty mundane
until experiencing the usual Wolfean epiphany late, which of course makes me
want to reread the whole thing again to figure out what really was going on.

I haven't read Vance; it's on my list as well.

Teflon

-----Original Message-----
From: cilluff1 at optonline.net [mailto:cilluff1 at optonline.net]
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 9:23 AM
To: urth at urth.net
Subject: (urth) Jack Vance or There are Doors?

-- Joe

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From: Gareth Jelley <gjelley at btopenworld.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 01:37:09 +0000

> you will have someone to talk to.

'There Are Doors' is on my Christmas Wish-List :o) So I may (or may not!) be
reading it in the New Year.

Best,

G.
<relurks>

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From: Joe Cilluffo <cilluff1 at optonline.net>
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 11:55:55 +0000

> I haven't read Vance; it's on my list as well.

Well, I'm glad to see if I turn to There are Doors next I'll have some
company on my voyage.  The mundane comment was sort of a fear I had moving
beyond the Urth universe -- Wolfe did such a spectacular job creating that
universe you have to wonder how many times he can come close to such a feat
when he starts from scratch on a non-Urth world.  Still, I think I may make
There are Doors my next challenge.  Thanks, Teflon.

-- Shell

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From: William Ansley <wansley at warwick.net>
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 20:14:49 +0000

>views on these books from the list?

My recommendation is that you read Jack Vance first. Wolfe is wonderful, of 
course, but it is nice to branch out once in a while. <g> Also, if you like 
Vance's _Dying Earth_, you'll probably like the rest of his stuff, and 
there is quite a bit of it. Then you'll have something to read when you run 
out of Wolfe.

I am a big fan of Jack Vance, but I feel it is only fair to warn you that 
if you are expecting the same intellectual work out that Wolfe gives you, 
you will be disappointed. But Vance is one of the better writers in SF; he 
certainly has his own unmistakable voice. If you expect to see a lot of 
direct influence from _Dying Earth_ to _New/Long/Short Sun_, you may also 
be disappointed. I would say that the influences are of mood and (very 
broadly) setting, rather than specific persons, places or things.

But, if you are willing to except Vance on his own terms and not as 
Wolfe-lite, I'll think you'll find a lot to like.

William Ansley

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From: Josh Geller <dclxvi at dclxvi.best.vwh.net>
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 20:35:41 +0000

On Fri, 20 Dec 2002, William Ansley wrote:
> At 12:23 PM 12/19/2002 -0500, someone wrote:

>> Hello, all.  I was looking for any opinions here, I am just about to
>> finish RTTW, and was looking next either to read Jack Vance's Tales of
>> the Dying Earth or Wolfe's There are Doors.  I'm intrigued as to the
>> Vance work to see how it influenced the Urth novels, but have never
>> read any Vance before.  I also have never read any Wolfe other than the
>> Urth/LS/SS cycle, I also don't know what to expect from There are
>> Doors.  Any recommendations or views on these books from the list?

> there is quite a bit of it.

I am awaiting delivery of my copy of the 44 volume Vance Integral Edition,
which (so it is said) should start arriving in February sometime.

>                              Then you'll have something to read when you
> run out of Wolfe.

> you will be disappointed.

This has not been my experience at all.

>                       But Vance is one of the better writers in SF; he
> certainly has his own unmistakable voice.

Vance is one of the great writers of the 20th century. Someday this will
be recognized.

.

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From: James Jordan <jbjordan4 at cox.net>
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 21:51:21 +0000

>which (so it is said) should start arriving in February sometime.
         Me, too.

>This has not been my experience at all.

         Yes. A different kind of intellectual work, but still profound and 
subtle -- very subtle.

>Vance is one of the great writers of the 20th century. Someday this will

         Amen. Preach it, brother!

Patera Nutria

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From: Dave Rolsky <autarch at urth.org>
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 23:29:04 +0000

> views on these books from the list?

I think you might as well read the Dying Earth stories, since they're a
quick, easy read.  Contrary to some other views on the list, I think Vance
is a good but definitely not great author.  I do think he should get some
credit for writing such an entertaining set of stories where the main
character in most of them (Cugel) is a completely unlikeable bastard ;)

Hmm, I don't have a Vironese name but I think I do win for most Wolfe-ish
email address ;)

-dave

/*==================
www.urth.org
we await the New Sun
==================*/

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From: James Jordan <jbjordan4 at cox.net>
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 23:51:02 +0000

>character in most of them (Cugel) is a completely unlikeable bastard ;)

         The Cugel stories are in the tradition of "picaresque tales" 
(tales about rascals) and we've seen very few in recent times, though they 
were common in Spain in the 16th c. You're supposed to both like and 
disdain Cugel, and that's the strength of a picaresque tale, which exposes 
the attractiveness of wicked behavior and makes us feel the humanity of 
even wicked people, all the while entertaining us humorously and indirectly 
showing us that wickedness is .. well .. wicked. It's a kind of realistic + 
humorous moral tale that is hard to pull off, and Vance does it brilliantly.
         Whether on thinks Vance is "great" or not, the Cugel tales are 
deft and exquisite exemplars of a neglected genre of Western literature.

Nutria

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From: Andy Robertson <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 00:04:11 +0000

Um, I disagree.   The original  picaresque novels did not have the grace of
a fantastic **deus ex machina** every three paragraphs.

Love Vance, hate THE DYING EARTH (except the first novel)

,nitc od
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Jordan" <jbjordan4 at cox.net>
To: <urth at urth.net>
Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 11:51 PM
Subject: Re: (urth) Jack Vance or There are Doors?

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From: Alice K. Turner <aturner6 at nyc.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 02:00:41 +0000

> deft and exquisite exemplars of a neglected genre of Western literature.

Oh Ratty, picaresque tales are very much with us today! Without even using
my waning brain power, I'm thinking -Tom Jones-(and then the movie), Felix
Krull-, -On the Road- and a zillion Hollywood "road movies" including the
great -Thelma and Louise-, movies that Jack Nicholson inhabits, with -Easy
Rider- only the first of them. It's become a very American form, though the
Irish -The Ginger Man- de rigueur in my college days, was another one. And
on and on. Picaresque doesn't really mean rascally, it's more an unplotted
tale that moves from adventure to adventure without much formal structure.
But rascally helps! And the Cugel stories fit perfectly, though most of
Vance is a bit more plotted. Let's see, in sf (which I'm less familiar with
than some of you) Pangborn's -Davy-, some of Delaney I think, the Fafyrd and
Mouser stories if they're thought of as a narrative (maybe that doesn't
count, but it almost does). Nearly everyone here can probably improve on
that list.

For people planning to dive into Vance, let me remind you that our own
mantis has written a useful (and cheap) guide that you can find by going to
the website marked in his sig.

-alga

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From: Adam Stephanides <adamsteph at earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 03:17:17 +0000

I think There Are Doors is Wolfe's most underrated book, but it's undeniably
a very strange reading experience.  It's probably his most somber book in
tone, if not in plot.  And if you're looking for the sort of intricately
detailed world found in the NS/LS/SS books, you won't find it here; you'd
probably be better off with the Soldier books (though it's been a long time
since I read them), or with The Dying Earth.

I'm not a huge Vance fan, but I'm probably in the minority in that respect
on this list.  Wolfe has praised The Dying Earth (the first book) very
highly; I suspect that if you asked him, he'd tell you to read that first.

--Adam

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From: Adam Stephanides <adamsteph at earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 03:17:20 +0000

> want to reread the whole thing again to figure out what really was going on.

I'm curious; what was your epiphany?  I had an epiphany of a sort while
pondering TAD, but I don't know whether it was the same as yours.

--Adam

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From: James Jordan <jbjordan4 at cox.net>
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 14:51:46 +0000

>count, but it almost does). Nearly everyone here can probably improve on

         I won't argue that picaresque tales are not still around. I'm 
happy to be corrected.
         However: "The word picaresque derives from the Spanish picaro, 
which means rascal or crafty good-for-nothing" (Michael Alpert, 
introduction [p.7] to *Two Spanish Picaresque Novels*, pub. by Penguin.) 
*Tom Jones* is a decent example, from the same historical period (roughly).
         But that's just a detail.

Nutria

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From: Josh Geller <dclxvi at dclxvi.best.vwh.net>
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 15:57:15 +0000

>> Oh Ratty, picaresque tales are very much with us today! Without even
>> using my waning brain power, I'm thinking -Tom Jones-(and then the
>> movie) [....]

> *Tom Jones* is a decent example, from the same historical period (roughly).

I really like 'Barry Lindon'. My favorite Kubrick picture also.

>          But that's just a detail.

You guys are *really* cute when you get to sniping at each other.

.

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