Subject: (urth) The Blue Urth Theory

From: ArchD'Ikon Zibethicus <zibethicus at hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 09:33:39 +0000

Quoth Mr. Lackey:

>Be that as it may, the mass of textual evidence against Blue
>being Urth/Ushas overwhelms the theory that it is.

Well, I myself am an adherent of _neither_ theory.  I have an open mind, and 
am open to discussion.  Dogmatism troubles me in excessive quantities, 
tho'...and I _have_ called for greater use of textual elements in 
discussion, so I'm glad that you _did_ use texts.

>Proponents of the Blue=Urth/Ushas theory have also claimed that the
>Neighbors were far-future descendents of the people who repopulated Urth 
>after it became Ushas.

I suggested this as a _possibility_ for the purposes of accounting for all 
the plot elements in a way satisfactory to the Blue Urth Theory.

>Where the Green Man fits into that evolution, I don't know.

Well, to be fair to Blue Urth Theorists, I have just gone over COC (BTW - is 
there a list of standard abbrevations?) Ch. III, 'The Showman's Tent', and 
have been unable to find a statement from the Green Man to the effect that 
he actually comes from Urth.  What he _does_ say is: "I am a free man, come 
from your own future to explore your age." (p. 27, Arrow p/back.) He also 
says that his sun is much brighter, but that he has no idea whether it is 
the New Sun or not...  If I was desperately trying to defend the Blue Urth 
Theory, I could observe that this increase of brightness could be 
attributable to an origin on an entirely different world with a different, 
brighter sun, rather than the New Sun.  We know now that Typhon sent 
colonisers out on the Whorl; is there any statement anywhere that the Whorl 
was the _only_ ship sent out?  What about other states and empires in the 
whole, vast history of Urth?  Why couldn't the Ascians have forced their own 
surplus population into space?

And, in any case, does the Green Man ever stipulate exactly _where_ in the 
future he does come from?  And, if not, why couldn't he come from Urth or 
Blue (if the two are different) or wherever, in a period _after_ the time of 
HornSilk?

>"I've been thinking about it, and about the City of the Inhumi on Green. 
>Those were ruins left by the Neighbors' ancient race; these were left by 
>ours, I believe--we are as ancient as they, or nearly." > (IGJ, 315)

I don't quite understand how this quote can be used to make a case that "At 
any rate, the text contradicts the theory that the Neighbors were some 
future evolutionary stage of humanity on Blushas."

I am not at all convinced that "the Neighbors were some future evolutionary 
stage of humanity on Blushas", myself, but I fail to see how that text can 
be used as evidence against the Theory, if only because this is only the 
conjecture of HornSilkIncanto (HSI).  HSI may not be in full possession of 
the facts, as are many of the characters in Mr. Wolfe's divers works, 
including Severian himself.

As I said in an earlier posting, I believe that Mr. Wolfe places all the 
necessary elements to an adequate comprehension of his work within the work 
itself, but I don't believe that the conjecture of a character within the 
work is necessarily adequate evidence in its own right, as his all-too-human 
characters are often mistaken or hasty in drawing conclusions, as are we 
all...

I find it more evidential that the Neighbours themselves told Horn (OBW Ch. 
11, 'The Land of Fires' p.271) "From this whorl we sprang...[t]here are 
rocks and rivers, trees and islands here that have been famous among us for 
many thousands of years."  Now if we can only agree on exactly _where_ it 
was that these words were spoken (if they were)...

->Zx<-

<snip the sig!>

_________________________________________________________________
STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 3 months FREE*. 
http://join.msn.com/?pageþatures/junkmail&xAPIDB&PSG575&PIs24&DIt74&SU= 
http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL16hotmailtaglines_stopmorespam_3mf

--

---

From: Chris <rasputin_ at hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 10:45:16 +0000

IMHO, there is never a problem of not having enough clues; the problem is, 
rather, that the given set of clues can produce a nearly infinite number of 
internally consistent hypotheses.

There are two ways of approaching the text, then. The first is to attempt to 
divine the author's intent. This is virtually impossible without the 
author's help, no matter *how* many clues he has provided in the text, 
because of the multitude of theories that can be spawned. On the other hand, 
this is an entertaining enough challenge to be worth doing.

The second possibility is to, as a reader, come up with a reading of the 
text that is as aesthetically pleasing (to you) as you can. In this sense we 
are in some way pushing each other to come up with more beautiful 
interpretations in consistency, form, and symmetry among other things - and 
in this context, what the author *meant* has little if anything to do with 
matters. One can look for the simplest explanation, but depending on your 
taste this won't always be the best.

In either case, I have always found the statement that "there are enough 
clues" to be somewhat mocking. Of *course* there are enough clues.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I tend to look at things from the second 
perspective, which lends itself well to tolerance of many different 
interpretations. My main *personal* reason for not favoring the Blushas 
theory is that it seems thematically unwieldy, and seems to require a sort 
of deus ex machina to work. Other people may well not share my tastes in 
this matter, though.

Regards,

Chris - wondering if "Cheese" is a valid Vironese name.

>work is necessarily adequate evidence in its own right, as his 
>all-too-human characters are often mistaken or hasty in drawing 
>conclusions, as are we all...

_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 3 months FREE*. 
http://join.msn.com/?pageþatures/junkmail&xAPIDB&PSG575&PIs24&DIt74&SU= 
http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL16hotmailtaglines_smartspamprotection_3mf

--