{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3709", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3709, "subject": "Merry Christmas ... let's remove the silence", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "2002-12-23T20:31:53+00:00", "last": "2002-12-24T00:02:11+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "maa32", "address": "maa32 at dana.ucc.nau.edu" }, "date": "2002-12-23T20:31:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Merry Christmas ... let's remove the silence", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I relinquish my hold upon you, precious information.\nYou will have to forgive me, guys. Please remember that I am like a kid in a \ncandy shop when it comes to Wolfe - enthusiastic and excited about everything \n- especially when it seems as if one of my original ideas (that everybody else \ndoubts) is right. Now I have created a \"sublist\" of the list - a few \nindividuals that I have forbid from posting the \"secret\", to speak only with \nme. That is clearly, clearly wrong. So I am going to bite the bullet and \npublically apologize to Mr. Wolfe; I behaved very badly, but I was excited. \nLet's post about it - let's not hinder the discussion because I couldn't keep \nit to myself. \nMy motives WERE good. I wanted to share the \"truth\". However, Mr. Wolfe \nobviously wants to cast doubt on this revelation by calling it a good natured \njoke. Let's approach it that way, and see if we find any evidence to back up \neither its validity or its worthlessness.\n\nThis is my Christmas present to the list - too bad it wasn't mine to give. \nRemember that Wolfe has claimed that it is a joke. But a very good one, eh?\n\nI do this so that you may appreciate that he truly is the finest subconscious \ncraftsmen of the modern era, and to argue with the claim that he doesn't know \nwhether Blue and Green are Urth and Lune. Of course he knows. I just think \nhe didn't want US to know. But I want us to appreciate how TRULY great he is.\n So, without further beating around the bush, here is the \"secret\" and here is \nthe evidence I found. How on Urth could I have ever convinced you of this, \nthough? It is too hermetically sealed to even try. You would never believe \nit without his words. Maybe most of you will never believe it.\n\nWhen asked \"Does the narrator travel through the white fountain in the short \nsun to the past, allowing Blue to be Urth?\", Gene replied\n\n\"No, no, NO! Green is Urth.\"\n\nWhich creates even more problems than my theories, eh?\n\nBut here is some evidence:\n\nThis occurs before the first trip to the red sun Whorl. Notice that the \nnarrator thinks of green and his son, but the song is being played, and a \nwitch appears in the fire, seen by Rigolio or Terzo.\n(End of Chapter 20, start of 21 in IGJ)\nWhile listening to the song (remember that the song of the mother is \"a song \nof time\":\n\"I tried to recall Green's jungles and Sinew. Sleep rushed upon me, sending me \nspinning through an endless night.\"\nThe next page: \"I want very much to describe the red sun whorl in such a way \nthat you can see it. ... Have I made you see Green's jungles? The swamps and \ntheir dire inhabitants? The immense trees and the lianas clinging to them like \nbrides? Or the City of the Inhumi, a grove of disintegrating towers like a \nnoble face rotting in the grave?\" .... and further on:\n\"There is a city somewhat like this on Green, but we are not on Green; these \nhouses would be the towers of the Neighbor lords there.\" ... \"I've been \nthinking about it, and about the City of the Inhumi on Green. Those were ruins \nleft by the Neighbors' ancient race; these were left by ours, I believe -- we \nare as ancient as they, or nearly.\"\n\n[of course the vanished people are as ancient as us - they ARE us]\n\nIt just keeps comparing the city of the inhumi to the necropolis of nessus ... \nand that man with the stiff bird-like gait in a colorless cloak on top of a \ntower on green smacks of Severian on top of the Matachin tower, doesn't it?\nAnd there is the round little window and the fact that green is warmer than \nblue. Also, the text states that the inhumu can't breed on blue because \nsomething is missing from the water.\n\nThe end of Chapter 21 talks about the narrators motivation in taking them \nthere, too - to see how their civilization could be corrupted if they aren't \ncareful.\n\nHow could anyone sit on this quietly? Only Mr. Wolfe, and I AM for all \nintents a child when it comes to this discussion - basking in glee. Is it a \njoke? I suspect Wolfe wants the solution cloaked in mystery - but I believe \nhim. I've already proposed several mechanisms, and Nigel Price has come up \nwith an interesting further interpretation of the star system that is \nfascinating and may explain the theme of the doubled limbs. I release you all \nto post about it. I'm sorry I kept it to myself at all - I thought I was \nrespecting Gene's wishes - but he never told me not to tell anybody. Please \nforgive me. No hard feelings! Merry Christmas.\n\nMarc Aramini" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Veyera", "address": "teflon93 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-12-24T00:02:11+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Merry Christmas ... let's remove the silence", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marc-\n\nThanks for removing the veil so we can discuss this. I look forward to the\nposts to follow.\n\n:When asked \"Does the narrator travel through the white fountain in the\nshort\nsun to the past, allowing Blue to be Urth?\", Gene replied\n\n\"No, no, NO! Green is Urth.\"\n\nWhich creates even more problems than my theories, eh?:\n\nWell, THAT should send people scurrying back to the text. Wonder what Roy\nthinks of author's intent on that one? :)\n\nIt does present some problems, though:\n\n1. The city many of us took to be Nessus underneath the waves noted by\nSeawrack can't be if Blue is Lune.\n\n2. Where'd all the water come from? In BotNS, the moon is described as\ngreen (it's been terraformed) but no oceans are in evidence upon it. I\ncertainly find it easier to think of Lune as becoming a huge jungle than it\nbecoming a water planet.\n\n3. Where'd all the water go on Ushas?\n\n\n:But here is some evidence:\n\nThis occurs before the first trip to the red sun Whorl. Notice that the\nnarrator thinks of green and his son, but the song is being played, and a\nwitch appears in the fire, seen by Rigolio or Terzo.\n(End of Chapter 20, start of 21 in IGJ)\nWhile listening to the song (remember that the song of the mother is \"a song\nof time\":\n\"I tried to recall Green's jungles and Sinew. Sleep rushed upon me, sending\nme\nspinning through an endless night.\"\nThe next page: \"I want very much to describe the red sun whorl in such a way\nthat you can see it. ... Have I made you see Green's jungles? The swamps and\ntheir dire inhabitants? The immense trees and the lianas clinging to them\nlike\nbrides? Or the City of the Inhumi, a grove of disintegrating towers like a\nnoble face rotting in the grave?\" .... and further on:\n\"There is a city somewhat like this on Green, but we are not on Green; these\nhouses would be the towers of the Neighbor lords there.\" ... \"I've been\nthinking about it, and about the City of the Inhumi on Green. Those were\nruins\nleft by the Neighbors' ancient race; these were left by ours, I believe --\nwe\nare as ancient as they, or nearly.\"\n\n[of course the vanished people are as ancient as us - they ARE us]\n\nIt just keeps comparing the city of the inhumi to the necropolis of nessus\n...\nand that man with the stiff bird-like gait in a colorless cloak on top of a\ntower on green smacks of Severian on top of the Matachin tower, doesn't it?\nAnd there is the round little window and the fact that green is warmer than\nblue. Also, the text states that the inhumu can't breed on blue because\nsomething is missing from the water.\n\nThe end of Chapter 21 talks about the narrators motivation in taking them\nthere, too - to see how their civilization could be corrupted if they aren't\ncareful.:\n\nThis is certainly food for thought, anyway.\n\n:How could anyone sit on this quietly? Only Mr. Wolfe, and I AM for all\nintents a child when it comes to this discussion - basking in glee. Is it a\njoke? I suspect Wolfe wants the solution cloaked in mystery - but I believe\nhim. I've already proposed several mechanisms, and Nigel Price has come up\nwith an interesting further interpretation of the star system that is\nfascinating and may explain the theme of the doubled limbs. I release you\nall\nto post about it. I'm sorry I kept it to myself at all - I thought I was\nrespecting Gene's wishes - but he never told me not to tell anybody. Please\nforgive me. No hard feelings! Merry Christmas.:\n\nPersonally, I think some folks on this list can be pretty harsh in\ncriticizing others---it's probably why longtime lurkers like myself rarely\ncontribute. As a New Year's resolution, I think we can all be a bit more\npatient and respectful of others' interpretations and theories. Even if we\ndon't agree with them, it adds flavor to the hearty stew that is the Urth\nlist." } ] } ] }