{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3722", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3722, "subject": "The Burden of Proof", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "2002-12-28T23:05:32+00:00", "last": "2002-12-29T14:58:42+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Veyera", "address": "teflon93 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-12-28T23:05:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Burden of Proof", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On Tue, 24 Dec 2002, maa32 wrote (Quoting Mean Gene):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"No, No, NO! Green is Urth.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this most likely means:\n\n1. A joke. Like if Tolkien, tired of being asked for the umpteenth time\nwhether The Ring represents The Bomb had replied, \"No, no, NO! Gollum\nrepresents the Atom Bomb.\"\n\nor\n\n2. Wolfe is saying that, of the two planets, Green, with its decaying\ncities and ancient horrors is more like Urth than Blue is. Like one might\nsay, if asked whether Severian is Aragorn, \"No, no, NO! Severian is\nGollum.\"\n\n-Rostrum\n\nIt's funny how the folks most devoted to author's intent in the previous\nBlushas threads suddenly come up with this elaborate joke theory rather than\nacknowledge that Wolfe may well have proceeded from the idea of Green as\nUshas.\n\nMarc has accepted that his original theory of Blue=Ushas, which he invested\nan enormous amount of effort, was simply wrong in light of the response he\nreceived. I think it's telling that his detractors are so dogmatic on this\npoint that even the author's simple, straightforward declaration somehow\ndoesn't suffice to overturn the applecart they've constructed.\n\nI don't have a dog in either hunt---to me it's entertaining to kick around\nthe notions either way. But it seems to me that the burden of proof has now\nshifted to the opponents of Green/Ushas---Marc has provided both the missive\nfrom Mr. Wolfe and some textual support, which is more than his detractors\nhave thus far provided.\n\nAbsent confirmation from Wolfe that he was merely joking, I think there's\nsome work to be done to explain why Green isn't Ushas, despite the author\nsaying it was.\n\nIn any case, making Marc out to be a naive dupe for somehow not realizing\nWolfe was pulling his leg as this and previous threads have seems ridiculous\nand disingenuous---if you think Green CANNOT be Ushas, prove it.\n\nTeflon" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice K. Turner", "address": "aturner6 at nyc.rr.com" }, "date": "2002-12-29T03:07:05+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) The Burden of Proof", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Teflon challenged:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In any case, making Marc out to be a naive dupe for somehow not realizing\nWolfe was pulling his leg as this and previous threads have seems\nridiculous\nand disingenuous---if you think Green CANNOT be Ushas, prove it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ordinarily I never get involved when the argument gets technical, but this\none seems so obvious that I'll stick my neck out. With the coming of the New\nSun came the end of an worldwide ice age. When the ice melted, the seas rose\nto cover vast tracts of land. Certainly they would have subsided a bit, but\nonly a bit--this isn't like a biblical or other flood but a permanent\nchange. From space ours is a blue planet, not green. Ushas would be a blue\nplanet too, harking back to pre-Urth Earth. Though I don't for a moment\nthink it is Blue.\n\nI doubt that this conjecture would ever have come up if GW hadn't, merely as\na sci-fi frill for he never makes use of it, hadn't made Lune green.\n\n-alga (who is green)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-12-29T14:58:42+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) The Burden of Proof", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 12/28/02 5:05 PM, Jeff Veyera at teflon93 at cox.net wrote:\nIt's funny how the folks most devoted to author's intent in the previous\nBlushas threads suddenly come up with this elaborate joke theory rather than\nacknowledge that Wolfe may well have proceeded from the idea of Green as\nUshas." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You seem to be under a misapprehension. The idea that Wolfe may have been\njoking is not a \"theory\" that the anti-\"Greeshas\" people concocted. Rather,\nit was introduced to the list by Marc himself, and originated with Wolfe.\nIf I had had only Wolfe's statement that Green was Urth, I might have\nhypothesized that Wolfe was joking, simply because Green=Urth is so\nimprobable and seems to contradict his earlier interview statement.\nFortunately, I didn't have to.\n\nIn any case, at least one of Wolfe's statements on this topic must be false.\nAfaik there are three: his statement that Green is Urth; his statement that\nthat statement was a joke (which we have at third hand, but Marc accepts it\nas authentic); and his interview statement regarding the destination of the\nWhorl, which still seems to me to argue strongly against either Blushas or\nGreeshas. These can't all be correct." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "it seems to me that the burden of proof has now\nshifted to the opponents of Green/Ushas---Marc has provided both the missive\nfrom Mr. Wolfe and some textual support," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "if one uses the term \"textual support\" very loosely" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "which is more than his detractors\nhave thus far provided." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As mentioned above, Marc himself provided the \"missive from Wolfe\" stating\nthat Greeshas was a joke. And all the arguments against Blue being Urth\napply equally well to Green." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Absent confirmation from Wolfe that he was merely joking," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To those don't believe Wolfe's statement that he was joking, a repetition by\nWolfe wouldn't settle anything. It'd just be dismissed as Wolfe \"continuing\nthe misdirection.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In any case, making Marc out to be a naive dupe" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"naive dupe\" is your word, not mine; but again, it was Marc who first (on\nthe list) raised the possibility that he'd been fooled." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "for somehow not realizing\nWolfe was pulling his leg as this and previous threads have seems ridiculous\nand disingenuous---if you think Green CANNOT be Ushas, prove it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Clearly, no sort of proof will convince the partisans of the Green=Urth\ntheory, since any contradiction or impossibility can be explained away by\nhypothesizing another ad hoc mechanism. But I will say that if Wolfe did\nintend Green to be Urth, then the Short Sun books are more shoddily written\nthan I'd thought.\n\n--Adam" } ] } ] }