Subject: (urth) The Burden of Proof

From: Jeff Veyera <teflon93 at cox.net>
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 23:05:32 +0000

On Tue, 24 Dec 2002, maa32 wrote (Quoting Mean Gene):

> "No, No, NO!  Green is Urth."

I think this most likely means:

1.  A joke.  Like if Tolkien, tired of being asked for the umpteenth time
whether The Ring represents The Bomb had replied, "No, no, NO!  Gollum
represents the Atom Bomb."

or

2.  Wolfe is saying that, of the two planets, Green, with its decaying
cities and ancient horrors is more like Urth than Blue is.  Like one might
say, if asked whether Severian is Aragorn, "No, no, NO!  Severian is
Gollum."

-Rostrum

It's funny how the folks most devoted to author's intent in the previous
Blushas threads suddenly come up with this elaborate joke theory rather than
acknowledge that Wolfe may well have proceeded from the idea of Green as
Ushas.

Marc has accepted that his original theory of Blue=Ushas, which he invested
an enormous amount of effort, was simply wrong in light of the response he
received.  I think it's telling that his detractors are so dogmatic on this
point that even the author's simple, straightforward declaration somehow
doesn't suffice to overturn the applecart they've constructed.

I don't have a dog in either hunt---to me it's entertaining to kick around
the notions either way.  But it seems to me that the burden of proof has now
shifted to the opponents of Green/Ushas---Marc has provided both the missive
from Mr. Wolfe and some textual support, which is more than his detractors
have thus far provided.

Absent confirmation from Wolfe that he was merely joking, I think there's
some work to be done to explain why Green isn't Ushas, despite the author
saying it was.

In any case, making Marc out to be a naive dupe for somehow not realizing
Wolfe was pulling his leg as this and previous threads have seems ridiculous
and disingenuous---if you think Green CANNOT be Ushas, prove it.

Teflon

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From: Alice K. Turner <aturner6 at nyc.rr.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 03:07:05 +0000

> and disingenuous---if you think Green CANNOT be Ushas, prove it.

Ordinarily I never get involved when the argument gets technical, but this
one seems so obvious that I'll stick my neck out. With the coming of the New
Sun came the end of an worldwide ice age. When the ice melted, the seas rose
to cover vast tracts of land. Certainly they would have subsided a bit, but
only a bit--this isn't like a biblical or other flood but a permanent
change. From space ours is a blue planet, not green. Ushas would be a blue
planet too, harking back to pre-Urth Earth. Though I don't for a moment
think it is Blue.

I doubt that this conjecture would ever have come up if GW hadn't, merely as
a sci-fi frill for he never makes use of it, hadn't made Lune green.

-alga (who is green)

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From: Adam Stephanides <adamsteph at earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 14:58:42 +0000

> acknowledge that Wolfe may well have proceeded from the idea of Green as

You seem to be under a misapprehension.  The idea that Wolfe may have been
joking is not a "theory" that the anti-"Greeshas" people concocted.  Rather,
it was introduced to the list by Marc himself, and originated with Wolfe.
If I had had only Wolfe's statement that Green was Urth, I might have
hypothesized that Wolfe was joking, simply because Green=Urth is so
improbable and seems to contradict his earlier interview statement.
Fortunately, I didn't have to.

In any case, at least one of Wolfe's statements on this topic must be false.
Afaik there are three: his statement that Green is Urth; his statement that
that statement was a joke (which we have at third hand, but Marc accepts it
as authentic); and his interview statement regarding the destination of the
Whorl, which still seems to me to argue strongly against either Blushas or
Greeshas.  These can't all be correct.

> it seems to me that the burden of proof has now
> from Mr. Wolfe and some textual support,

if one uses the term "textual support" very loosely

> which is more than his detractors
> have thus far provided.

As mentioned above, Marc himself provided the "missive from Wolfe" stating
that Greeshas was a joke.  And all the arguments against Blue being Urth
apply equally well to Green.

> Absent confirmation from Wolfe that he was merely joking,

To those don't believe Wolfe's statement that he was joking, a repetition by
Wolfe wouldn't settle anything.  It'd just be dismissed as Wolfe "continuing
the misdirection."

> In any case, making Marc out to be a naive dupe

"naive dupe" is your word, not mine; but again, it was Marc who first (on
the list) raised the possibility that he'd been fooled.

> for somehow not realizing

Clearly, no sort of proof will convince the partisans of the Green=Urth
theory, since any contradiction or impossibility can be explained away by
hypothesizing another ad hoc mechanism.  But I will say that if Wolfe did
intend Green to be Urth, then the Short Sun books are more shoddily written
than I'd thought.

--Adam

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