{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/373", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 373, "subject": "Black Sun, White Fountain", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "1998-02-12T11:45:50+00:00", "last": "1998-02-12T15:20:34+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kieran Cleary", "address": "kierannwn at tinet.ie" }, "date": "1998-02-12T15:20:34+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Black Sun, White Fountain", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Christopher Culver says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "if anything came into this universe from a lower universe (White Fountain),\nan\nequal amount would leave it to a higher universe (black hole)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "er, that's kind of what I was getting at in a previous post." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So, speculation follows: the black hole that is destroying the Old Sun is\nmerely the necessary complement to the White Fountain. One has caused the\nother, and are both different sides of the same coin that is Severian." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While I've been aware that there was a black hole in the Old Sun, and that\nthe catalyst for the conversion of the Old Sun to New Sun is a White,I've\nnever been able to imagine what exactly is supposed to happen when White\nFountain meets Old Sun and why this event creates a young regenerated sun.\nIt's a bit like the two scientists at the blackboard in Larson's cartoon:\n\"and then a miracle happens\".\n\nSo to be explicit: It seems plausible that the black hole in the Old Sun is\n*directly* connected to the White Fountain. Energy/matter exiting through\nthe black hole in the Old Sun appears from the mouth of the White Fountain.\nWhich means that its not a Black Hole complete with singularity but instead\nboth phenomena represent the two mouths of the same wormhole. This has some\nnice cyclical resonances if we can get over the dualist implications it has\nfor Severian's character and nature, and also gives us a way to think about\nthe rejuvination of the Old Sun.\n\nKieran C.\n\n\nNorth West Labs\nFinisklin Industrial Estate\nSligo\nRepublic of Ireland\n\nTel. +353 71 69441\nFax. +353 71 69451\nemail: kierannwn at tinet.ie" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "1998-02-12T11:45:50+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Black Sun, White Fountain", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 12 Feb 1998, Kieran Cleary wrote:\nSo to be explicit: It seems plausible that the black hole in the Old Sun is\n*directly* connected to the White Fountain. Energy/matter exiting through\nthe black hole in the Old Sun appears from the mouth of the White Fountain.\nWhich means that its not a Black Hole complete with singularity but instead\nboth phenomena represent the two mouths of the same wormhole. This has some\nnice cyclical resonances if we can get over the dualist implications it has\nfor Severian's character and nature, and also gives us a way to think about\nthe rejuvination of the Old Sun." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Kind of like plugging a hole by putting the other end of the hole in the\noriginal hole? Or maybe a bathtub drain that leads back to the bathtub,\nrefilling it?\n\nIf so, it might be more accurate to speak of Healing the Wounded Sun\nrather than replacing the Old Sun with the New Sun.\n\nExcept I still obviously don't understand anything because if the world\nSeverian returns to is a whole new universe, then the Urth of the first\nfour books never gets a New Sun, it just dies with the old one. And the\nnew world, Ushas, shouldn't need a New Sun.\n\nTime to reread.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "1998-02-12T13:56:31+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Black Sun, White Fountain", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 03:20 PM 2/12/98 -0000, you wrote:\n\n[Posted from URTH, a mailing list about Gene Wolfe's New Sun and other works]\n\nChristopher Culver says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "if anything came into this universe from a lower universe (White Fountain),\nan\nequal amount would leave it to a higher universe (black hole)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "er, that's kind of what I was getting at in a previous post." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So, speculation follows: the black hole that is destroying the Old Sun is\nmerely the necessary complement to the White Fountain. One has caused the\nother, and are both different sides of the same coin that is Severian." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "While I've been aware that there was a black hole in the Old Sun, and that\nthe catalyst for the conversion of the Old Sun to New Sun is a White,I've\nnever been able to imagine what exactly is supposed to happen when White\nFountain meets Old Sun and why this event creates a young regenerated sun.\nIt's a bit like the two scientists at the blackboard in Larson's cartoon:\n\"and then a miracle happens\".\n\nSo to be explicit: It seems plausible that the black hole in the Old Sun is\n*directly* connected to the White Fountain. Energy/matter exiting through\nthe black hole in the Old Sun appears from the mouth of the White Fountain.\nWhich means that its not a Black Hole complete with singularity but instead\nboth phenomena represent the two mouths of the same wormhole. This has some\nnice cyclical resonances if we can get over the dualist implications it has\nfor Severian's character and nature, and also gives us a way to think about\nthe rejuvination of the Old Sun.\n\nKieran C." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tI'm partial to Alga's suggestion that the black hole, the worm in the\nheart of the sun, relates to original sin symbolically. The white fountain\nrelates symbolically to redemption and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit\n(parallel the river flowing from Yesodh to Beriach, Revelation 22:1ff.).\nThis seems very Wolfean to me, especially given the theological subtexts in\nthe book.\n\tNow, IF there is an old Severian and a new Severian, then this might be\nlike the old Adam and the New Adam (Jesus). In that case, it MIGHT be the\ncase that the old Severian is guilty of introducing the black hole\n(original sin), while the new Severian comes to undo that sin and restore\nthe sun.\n\tI'm still not sure about the two Severians, though.\n\tMaybe Wolfe needs to write a \"Book of the Old Sun\" for us, about the old\nSeverian?\n\tAny thoughts on this?\n\nNutria" } ] } ] }