Subject: (urth) typhon's knowledge

From: maa32 <maa32 at dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 18:04:22 +0000

Roy claims that Typhon knows very little about the conciliator or about 
flooding.  However, he hints at several things in his appearance in Sword of 
the Lictor.  He claims that water brings new life and rebirth.  He understands 
the role of the conciliator and his idenitity, promising Severian that if he 
kneels before him, the Conciliator come again will also kneel before him.  And 
what does Severian see when he looks out the eyes of Typhon?  A vast plain of 
water.  This is what Typhon sees from his mountain, with his false eyes.  
As for  the idea of the Conciliator was not unknown in Typhon's time - the 
conciliator was a rewriting of christology - an echo of the promise of a 
savior that MUST have been extent if Buzz Aldron was extent in that distant 
future.  The conciliator became meshed with Christ in myth- and of course 
Typhon knew about that, since he is an allegory of Satan.  He is re-enacting 
the temptation scene - he knows everything about the conciliator and his 
mission.  Even if there was no need for a sun before the age of Typhon, there 
was still need of a spiritual salvation with which the conciliator became 
associated.  Come now.  How can the memory of Buzz Aldron outlive the memory 
of Christ?  You really believe that Typhon, the satan figure of the text of 
New Sun, is ignorant of the role of the savior figure?  He might, after all, 
have had access to the book of Canog that Dr. Talos must have perused to write 
Eschatology and Genesis.  And the whole secret of the future is of course in 
that text, composed from notes Severian revealed at the time when he meets 
Typhon in the past and is incarcerated.  If Typhon lived even another year or 
two, he might have seen that text, with its gnostic eschatology and genesis 
ripe for his analysis. He might have even tried to use it when he took all the 
other writings of ready-made religions and made his whorl.  (if the whorl was 
already sent, then he still had an immense storehouse of myths that would 
become inseparable from the story of the Conciliator, who, before the 
publication of Urth of the New Sun, seemed to be homologous with Jesus Christ.
 Could Sappho and Aurelius outlive the documents of Christ in someplace like 
Buenos Aires?).

Marc Aramini

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From: Chris <rasputin_ at hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 19:24:52 +0000

Speaking of myth, I have been toying with an idea which I am hoping someone 
can put me on the right track with (or off the wrong one). The Learned Ones 
of this list have certainly seen a lot, and I would be surprised if someone 
hadn't already pursued this in more detail.

I am thinking that *one* way to describe what's going on is that the nature 
of Yesod is that it is a world of *myths*, and not just a world with myths, 
but essentially it is the mythical realm and follows mythical rules. It is 
also one of four distinct stages of creation, of which our physical world is 
also one. If one traces from the Creator to Creation, just one step short of 
the physical world is Yetzirah; an "Ur-Earth". Qabbalistically, there are 
four worlds of creation, starting from Atzilut (which is Nothingness), 
closest to the creator. The next rung down is *Briah*, whose focus is 
bringing Something from Nothingness, and whose associated archangel does 
happen to be Tzadkiel (also associated with Chesed, the sefirot of "Mercy" 
or giving, which is appropriate). Next down is the world of Yetzirah, the 
world of Forms (Something from Something) - this is where one might say the 
myths go to play. I believe this is the stage where the New Sun series takes 
place; perhaps you could say it is an alternate way of telling the same 
story that is our universe... The use of the term Yesod (which is the 
sefirot of "Foundation") could refer to the fact that Yetzirah can be said 
to correspond to 6 of the lower sefirot taken together, the lowest of which 
(low being in the direction of creation, away from creator) is Yesod. The 
world as we know it in our physical sense is Assiah (Completion) and is 
associated with Malkhut, the "lowest" Sefirot of all (this is a vast 
oversimplification).

There are numerous things that would seem to go along with an interpretation 
like this. Talos' play may be a very big hint toward how to look at the 
overall story.

Another thing which I may pursue in an unrelated (or related way) is the 
association of Severian with Sammael - the angel often associated with 
Geburah ("Severity") and I guess you would say the counter-part or 
counter-balance to Tzadkiel. While these two angels are in opposing spheres, 
it's important not to read any antagonism into the relationship: the two 
form a thesis/antithesis pair that is necessary for the process of 
synthesis. A point of note is that in qabbalah each persistent, named angel 
is associated with a star - exactly *one* star per angel. The terms in which 
this was described to me reminded me very heavily of the association of the 
Conciliator with his New Sun.

If I use this framework, I am as yet uncertain whether to say the Long Sun 
books take place in Yetzirah or Assiah. Either seems possible. It's 
maintained by mystics that it's possible for a person in this world to 
temporarily translate his consciousness to the world of Yetzirah (though no 
higher than that? not sure about that), which would make it possible for 
Silk to talk to Severian even from a different realm. An interesting side 
effect of this is that if that's how the communication takes place, then the 
difference in time and distance between Silk and Severian becomes completely 
irrelevant.

I have far more to learn on both of these subjects before I can really do 
much useful with it - that is, if I'm not running down a blind alley.

Chris

>  Could Sappho and Aurelius outlive the documents of Christ in someplace 

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From: James Wynn <crushtv at hotpop.com>
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 20:07:37 +0000

I will say this: It has always bothered me that Typhon didn't recognize
Severian since from Typhon's perspective, it had only been a short time
since he saw the Concilliator. IMO this corroborates Marc's argument.

-----Original Message-----
From: maa32 [mailto:maa32 at dana.ucc.nau.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 12:04 PM
To: urth at urth.net
Subject: (urth) typhon's knowledge

Roy claims that Typhon knows very little about the conciliator or about
flooding.  However, he hints at several things in his appearance in Sword of
the Lictor.  He claims that water brings new life and rebirth.  He
understands
the role of the conciliator and his idenitity, promising Severian that if he
kneels before him, the Conciliator come again will also kneel before him.
And
what does Severian see when he looks out the eyes of Typhon?  A vast plain
of
water.  This is what Typhon sees from his mountain, with his false eyes.
As for  the idea of the Conciliator was not unknown in Typhon's time - the
conciliator was a rewriting of christology - an echo of the promise of a
savior that MUST have been extent if Buzz Aldron was extent in that distant
future.  The conciliator became meshed with Christ in myth- and of course
Typhon knew about that, since he is an allegory of Satan.  He is re-enacting
the temptation scene - he knows everything about the conciliator and his
mission.  Even if there was no need for a sun before the age of Typhon,
there
was still need of a spiritual salvation with which the conciliator became
associated.  Come now.  How can the memory of Buzz Aldron outlive the memory
of Christ?  You really believe that Typhon, the satan figure of the text of
New Sun, is ignorant of the role of the savior figure?  He might, after all,
have had access to the book of Canog that Dr. Talos must have perused to
write
Eschatology and Genesis.  And the whole secret of the future is of course in
that text, composed from notes Severian revealed at the time when he meets
Typhon in the past and is incarcerated.  If Typhon lived even another year
or
two, he might have seen that text, with its gnostic eschatology and genesis
ripe for his analysis. He might have even tried to use it when he took all
the
other writings of ready-made religions and made his whorl.  (if the whorl
was
already sent, then he still had an immense storehouse of myths that would
become inseparable from the story of the Conciliator, who, before the
publication of Urth of the New Sun, seemed to be homologous with Jesus
Christ.
 Could Sappho and Aurelius outlive the documents of Christ in someplace like
Buenos Aires?).

Marc Aramini

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From: Jeff Veyera <teflon93 at cox.net>
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 17:22:33 +0000

James Wynn wrote:

To which Teflon replies:

Not so fast. Keep in mind that the Severian that Typhon saw after his long
sleep probably looked quite different from the one he saw before it.  It is
also possible that he experienced his hibernation as coma patients do and it
took some time to emerge from the fog.

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From: Josh Geller <dclxvi at dclxvi.best.vwh.net>
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 18:36:05 +0000

> since he saw the Concilliator.

I thought that Typhon did, in fact, recognize Severian.

.

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From: James Wynn <crushtv at hotpop.com>
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 19:40:57 +0000

Hmmm. Maybe he did. There seems to be some confusion. It would make more
sense to me if he did.

-- Crush

-----Original Message-----
From: Josh Geller [mailto:dclxvi at dclxvi.best.vwh.net]
Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 12:36 PM
To: urth at urth.net
Subject: RE: (urth) typhon's knowledge

.

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