Subject: (urth) recognition of Typhon

From: maa32 <maa32 at dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 23:43:08 +0000

Of course Typhon recognizes Severian.  He says, "If you kneel before me, the 
New Sun will kneel before me when he comes."  Right after they talk about the 
New Sun and the Conciliator being the SAME PERSON.  Not only does Typhon know 
Severian, he knows about the sea powers and already seeks an alliance with 
them, and he knows about Severian's relic (ostensibly claiming that he knows 
about it from watching him try to use it on Little Severian - but it doesn't 
do crap there, does it?  He must know about it from somewhere/when else.)  
It's very, very hard to read that scene without believing that Typhon knows 
precisely who Typhon is, especially with the Concialiator/New Sun/Severian 
connection made by Typhon himself.

Marc Aramini

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From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 09:33:44 +0000

Marc Aramini wrote:
>>Of course Typhon recognizes Severian.  He says, "If you kneel before me,
the New Sun will kneel before me when he comes."<<

You put that in quotes. As if it came from the text. It doesn't. Severian's
entire meeting with Typhon runs from page 184 to page 197 of SWORD,
Timescape hardback, 170-182 paper. He said no such thing.

>>Right after they talk about the
New Sun and the Conciliator being the SAME PERSON.<<

Nope. Typhon never mentioned the New Sun. The closest you can come is that
Sev mentioned him once: "Autarch, what of the New Sun, if at last he comes?
Will you be his enemy too, as you were the enemy of the Conciliator?" Sev
speaks as if the New Sun and the Conciliator were _not_ the same person.
Typhon answered: "Swear to me, and believe me, when he comes I shall be his
master, and he my most abject slave." Then Sev killed him. There was no
mention of the New Sun during their brief meeting in URTH, either.

>>Not only does Typhon know Severian, he knows about the sea powers and
already seeks an alliance with them,<<

What he actually said was: "There are powers in the seas now who would rule.
They will become our slaves, and the hordes of the north are theirs."
Slaves, not allies. Typhon's ego would never allow him to share power.

>> and he knows about Severian's relic (ostensibly claiming that he knows
about it from watching him try to use it on Little Severian - but it doesn't
do crap there, does it?  He must know about it from somewhere/when else.)<<

He "saw the sacred fire" of the gem when Sev tried to use it on Little
Severian, that's all.

>>It's very, very hard to read that scene without believing that Typhon
knows precisely who Typhon is, especially with the Concialiator/New
Sun/Severian connection made by Typhon himself.<<

Typhon had never heard of the New Sun before Sev said it, and he was dead
five seconds after hearing it.

-Roy

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