{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3744", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3744, "subject": "Blue-Ushas; Green-Urth -- Problems", "messages": 9, "voices": 8, "first": "2003-01-05T01:23:23+00:00", "last": "2003-01-06T22:26:34+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2003-01-05T01:23:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Blue-Ushas; Green-Urth -- Problems", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 05:47 PM 12/23/2002, Nigel wrote:\nMarc wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I've already proposed several mechanisms, and\nNigel Price has come up with an interesting\nfurther interpretation of the star system that\nis fascinating and may explain the theme of the\ndoubled limbs." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I take GW's comment to Marc very seriously, and believe that it is true, at\nleast at a symbollic level. Green is, in part, a satire on greedy, warring,\nself-destroying Urth/Earth. Here is part of my recent off-list\ncorrespondence with Marc on the subject." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Thought #1: GW told you that Green is Urth, but\nthat doesn't preclude the possibility that Blue is\nUshas." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Yeah. I'm thinking along those lines also. But shucks, I was so \nsure that my \"another banggnab\" theory was right! Well, there you are.\n Anyway, let's run with this, and see where it might lead. Assuming \nthat GW was not joking, and also that his note was precise: Green is URTH, \nnot Ushas. If it is, then Ushas must be around somewhere, and must be Blue.\n One can see possibilities here. The city of the sewers is Nessus, \nbut so is the underwater city on Blue.\n Green is analogous to the old pre-gospel world that continues \nalongside the New Creation inaugurated by Jesus. It has been suggested that \nthe Neighbors are like the pre-Christian philosophers, the inhumi like \npagan gentiles in need of redemption, and the invaders from the Whorl \n(humans) are like the Christian world. The Whorl itself (especially Viron) \nis like Judaism, and Silk is like Jesus (for his narrative tracks the \ngospels pretty well, and then moves into Acts and Revelation).\n For Wolfe, the Christian world (Blue) is a sorry mess, but not as \nsorry as mess as the world outside of Christendom, which invades \nChristendom (like the inhumi) and needs to be redeemed by Christians \nbehaving as they should (like Silk).\n As a grid -- one among others -- this works okay whether \nGreen/Blue are Urth/Ushas or not. Here are some agenda items/problems for \nthe thesis, assuming Wolfe was not joking.\n 1. I think what we need to look for is an indication of how, or an \nindication THAT, the coming of the New Sun split Urth into Old Urth and New \nUshas, and split Severian as well (since he seems to be on Green/Urth, as \nMarc has pointed out, and we know that he was on Ushas).\n Hmmm. Severian is the New Sun in a sense, but he is also the \nRepresentative of Urth, being made of Urthish matter. If Severian splits, \nthen possibly Urth splits also. Any hint anywhere of Severian splitting? We \nknow that there are other Severians, but I'm not recalling any notion of \nsplitting....\n 2. Time travel back to Severian's day is still a problem. Maybe \nI've missed the solution and it has been posted already. There needs to be \na time-traveller along on the astral journey for it to be a time trip. Have \nwe found such a person, on or off camera? Did Silk's \"eternal moment\" at \nthe beginning of the narrative make him someone who could be an anchor for \ntime travel?\n 3. What was Typhon aiming for? He was aiming for Blue/Green; we \nknow that. It makes sense to me that he might have sent the Whorl in a \nlarge circle to come back to Urth/Lune, where he could wake up as a \ntwo-headed god to be worshipped by people trained to do so by Pas. But that \nassumes Green is Lune, which we are rejecting in this hypothesis. Could \nTyphon have known not only of the future flood, but also of the future \nsplitting? It seems to me that he would have to have known this, for this \nhypothesis to work.\n 4. Why and HOW do both planets become planets of intelligent \nplants? Some of Marc's old stuff might play in here, of course.\n 5. What happened to the humans who lived through the coming of the \nNew Son on Green-Urth and Blue-Ushas? Severian still seems to be haunting \nGreen in human form. What of the rest? Did they \"evolve\" into Neighbors and \nmaybe also inhumi? How? And, is there evidence?\n 6. What is the meta-narrative underpinning? Silk is a Christ \nfigure (not a Moses figure, Biblically, save as Moses is a type of Christ \n-- don't be fooled by the word \"exodus,\" but see Luke 9:31, where what \nJesus accomplished at Jerusalem is called his \"exodus\" -- something Wolfe \nsurely knows, having heard this passage read annually at mass). Are we to \nthink of Severian as more of a Noah figure, once we read all 12 volumes? \nDoes it finally come out something like this?:\n a. An old pre-flood world, where the sons of god (interpreted as \nspace beings) are marrying (interfering with) the daughters of men (human \nbeings), and the world has become corrupt.\n b. A new Noah brings a flood.\n c. The world divides into higher gentiles (Neighbors) and raw \nbarbarians (inhumi), while the Jews have a separate history (the Whorl) \nleading down to a savior (Silk).\n d. The new people emerge from the Whorl (Christians) and now must \nenter and deal with the twin worlds of the gentiles \n(Blue-Ushas/Green-Urth). The higher gentiles, the philosophers (Neighbors) \nyield to the new Christians (the humans).\n e. But I can see lots of objections to this, and so doubtless can \nyou all.\n Anyway, just some thoughts, and just for fun.\n You see, I think it possible that Wolfe's comment was serious, but \nnot literal. Jesus took bread and said, \"This IS my body.\" Well, as \ntheologians (and recently others) have argued for centuries, how you take \nthis depends on what the meaning of \"is\" is. Green IS Urth. Sure it is. If \nyou want to see what Urth was like before the New Sun, take a look at \nGreen. Not Blue but Green is symbolically parallel to Urth. Maybe that's \nall Gene meant.\n But if he meant more, it's fun to try and track it down.\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2003-01-05T02:46:22+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Blue-Ushas; Green-Urth -- Problems", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thank you James, for your comments; I'd never seen the interview you were \nreferring to, and that probably saved me some headaches - though I may try \nto develop the theory anyway, just as an exercise (and who knows, it could \nbe right in its own way, still).\n\nRe: \"No, no, NO, GREEN is Urth\", I thought I'd add this on (from the joke \nangle), though it's not much of a joke unless you're an engineer. In various \ntypes of power cords, there tend to be three wires of different colors. The \ncolors mean different things, depending on what kind of wiring it is, but as \nfar as I know there is almost always a green, and it corresponds to: \n\"Earth\". (the others being \"line\", and \"neutral\")\n\nI am interested in your points on the meta-narrative. I am uncomfortable \ngoing too far with the Silk-as-a-Christ-figure line, though I can see where \nit's coming from. To simplify what would otherwise be an overly-wordy post \non my part, in essence I feel that if Wolfe had intended Silk as (primarily) \na Christ-figure, we would have a whole different story on our hands.\n\nI don't think Severian matches a Noah either; Noah wasn't the agent of God's \nflood, he simply was chosen to survive it and to make preparations to \npreserve life for after the flood. Severian in contrast actively \nprecipitates his flood, and doesn't really do much of anything to prepare or \nto mitigate its destruction. I'd call him a Shiva-figure, but there are \nprobably better descriptions.\n\nPerhaps all planets, with their cycles of creation and destruction, are Urth \n(Ushas, Blue, Earth, and Green)?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " 6. What is the meta-narrative underpinning? Silk is a Christ \nfigure (not a Moses figure, Biblically, save as Moses is a type of Christ \n-- don't be fooled by the word \"exodus,\" but see Luke 9:31, where what \nJesus accomplished at Jerusalem is called his \"exodus\" -- something Wolfe \nsurely knows, having heard this passage read annually at mass). Are we to \nthink of Severian as more of a Noah figure, once we read all 12 volumes? \nDoes it finally come out something like this?:\n a. An old pre-flood world, where the sons of god (interpreted as \nspace beings) are marrying (interfering with) the daughters of men (human \nbeings), and the world has become corrupt.\n b. A new Noah brings a flood.\n c. The world divides into higher gentiles (Neighbors) and raw \nbarbarians (inhumi), while the Jews have a separate history (the Whorl) \nleading down to a savior (Silk).\n d. The new people emerge from the Whorl (Christians) and now must \nenter and deal with the twin worlds of the gentiles \n(Blue-Ushas/Green-Urth). The higher gentiles, the philosophers (Neighbors) \nyield to the new Christians (the humans).\n e. But I can see lots of objections to this, and so doubtless can \nyou all.\n Anyway, just some thoughts, and just for fun.\n You see, I think it possible that Wolfe's comment was serious, but \nnot literal. Jesus took bread and said, \"This IS my body.\" Well, as \ntheologians (and recently others) have argued for centuries, how you take \nthis depends on what the meaning of \"is\" is. Green IS Urth. Sure it is. If \nyou want to see what Urth was like before the New Sun, take a look at \nGreen. Not Blue but Green is symbolically parallel to Urth. Maybe that's \nall Gene meant.\n But if he meant more, it's fun to try and track it down.\n\nNutria\n\n\n--" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Veyera", "address": "teflon93 at cox.net" }, "date": "2003-01-05T04:53:31+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Blue-Ushas; Green-Urth -- Problems", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Chris wrote:\nRe: \"No, no, NO, GREEN is Urth\", I thought I'd add this on (from the joke\nangle), though it's not much of a joke unless you're an engineer. In various\ntypes of power cords, there tend to be three wires of different colors. The\ncolors mean different things, depending on what kind of wiring it is, but as\nfar as I know there is almost always a green, and it corresponds to:\n\"Earth\". (the others being \"line\", and \"neutral\")\n\nTeflon replies:\n\nWell, we all know Gene IS an engineer, so that little in-joke may actually\nfit.\n\nHaving re-read the Red Sun whorl visit portions of RttW again (esp. Chap 17)\nsome things gelled:\n\n1. The reference to Green made by Hoof is pretty damning to the overall\nGreen-Blue as Ushas-Lune hypothesis. At first, I was struck by this\npassage, made while on the ship in the Red Sun whorl: \"Green came up, bigger\nand brighter than we ever see it on Blue.\" But then, later, Hoof says,\n\"Green was up above the main-mast, and it seemed like if we put up the main\ntop it would touch it. Our Green is not as big as theirs, but ours was\nplenty bright.\" Then, apparently back on Blue: \"Out on the water there were\nthe stars and quite a bit of light from Green; for nighttime it was really\npretty bright, but there was sort of a shadow between the side and the\nwater. Green was halfway up over to starboard.\"\n\nHide was born on Blue. He has never known any other place, until the\njourney to the Red Sun whorl. It seems natural that he would describe what\nhe saw there in terms of what he knew from his own experience---thus he\nrecognizes the towers of Nessus for the landers they truly were, and sees\nLune as a larger, brighter version of Green.\n\n2. We've discussed the whole astral travel issue a lot. The question arose\nas to how they could go to the Red Sun whorl after the visit with Duke\nRigoglio. Silkhorn explains, \"I should explain to you both why we cannot go\nto the sea [on Urth] directly, as I did to Scylla several days ago. In\norder to go to a place we must have with us someone who has been there, or\nat least been in the area. I don't know why that is so, but that is how it\nseems to be. I can go to Green---as I have at times---because I have been\nthere in the flesh. I can go to the Red Sun Whorl, too, as we did a few\nminutes ago, because Jahlee and I went there in the company of Duke Rigoglio\nof Soldo. He had been a Sleeper on the Whorl, and so had been there in the\nflesh. I cannot take us to the sea there, because I have never been on it.\nScylla has, to be sure, but ultimately Scylla is not among us.\" This travel\nis clearly spatial rather than temporal---when he went to Green, it was\nGreen at that moment. Likewise, his visit to the Red Sun Whorl is most\nlikely at the equivalent time rather than in the past or future. When\nSilkhorn references the 300 year journey of the Whorl relative to the time\npassage on the Red Sun whorl, he notes, \"It's been much longer than that\"\nand later indicates his belief that it had been many centuries since\nCilinia/Scylla had died. In Chap 19, he tells Juganu, \"Think of a whorl so\nold that even its seasons have worn out, a whorl on which they had jungles\nlike yours once, with wide-leafed plants and many flowers and huge trees.\nIt is too cold for that in our time...\" Note the \"our\" time\nthere---Silkhorn and company are travelling in space, not time." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2003-01-05T10:18:05+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Blue-Ushas; Green-Urth -- Problems", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh dear. Yes, I think that is the reason Wolfe said this. I had forgot\nhe is an engineer.\n\n\n hartshorn\n\n----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Chris\" \nRe: \"No, no, NO, GREEN is Urth\", I thought I'd add this on (from the joke\nangle), though it's not much of a joke unless you're an engineer. In\nvarious\ntypes of power cords, there tend to be three wires of different colors." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "colors mean different things, depending on what kind of wiring it is, but\nas\nfar as I know there is almost always a green, and it corresponds to:\n\"Earth\". (the others being \"line\", and \"neutral\")" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Joe Cilluffo", "address": "cilluff1 at optonline.net" }, "date": "2003-01-05T15:00:50+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Blue-Ushas; Green-Urth -- Problems", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nutria wrote:\n\n<<\n Anyway, let's run with this, and see where it might lead.\nAssuming \nthat GW was not joking, and also that his note was precise: Green is\nURTH, \nnot Ushas. If it is, then Ushas must be around somewhere, and must be\nBlue.\n One can see possibilities here. The city of the sewers is\nNessus, \nbut so is the underwater city on Blue.\n Green is analogous to the old pre-gospel world that continues \nalongside the New Creation inaugurated by Jesus. It has been suggested\nthat \nthe Neighbors are like the pre-Christian philosophers, the inhumi like \npagan gentiles in need of redemption, and the invaders from the Whorl \n(humans) are like the Christian world. The Whorl itself (especially\nViron) \nis like Judaism, and Silk is like Jesus (for his narrative tracks the \ngospels pretty well, and then moves into Acts and Revelation).\n For Wolfe, the Christian world (Blue) is a sorry mess, but not\nas \nsorry as mess as the world outside of Christendom, which invades \nChristendom (like the inhumi) and needs to be redeemed by Christians \nbehaving as they should (like Silk).>>\n\nFirst off, wow, excellent synthesis of it all! \n\n<< 1. I think what we need to look for is an indication of how, or\nan \nindication THAT, the coming of the New Sun split Urth into Old Urth and\nNew \nUshas, and split Severian as well (since he seems to be on Green/Urth,\nas \nMarc has pointed out, and we know that he was on Ushas).>>\n\nI'll take a stab at the HOW, as your synthesis above seems to be an\nexplanation of the THAT. : ) Regarding how it happened, could it be that\nthe same bifurcation that Burgondofara experienced also happened to the\nplanets themselves? \n\n <\n\nWhat about Silkhorn being an \"aspect\" of Severian? His walking around\nunconsciously garbed like a torturer and carrying the torturer's sword\nsuggests this, and could be evidence of a split of Sev.\n\n<< 3. What was Typhon aiming for? He was aiming for Blue/Green;\nwe \nknow that. It makes sense to me that he might have sent the Whorl in a \nlarge circle to come back to Urth/Lune, where he could wake up as a \ntwo-headed god to be worshipped by people trained to do so by Pas. But\nthat \nassumes Green is Lune, which we are rejecting in this hypothesis. Could \nTyphon have known not only of the future flood, but also of the future \nsplitting? It seems to me that he would have to have known this, for\nthis \nhypothesis to work.>>\n\nHmmm, that's a little tougher, but I have two musings on the subject.\nFirst, we all assume that Typhon was aiming for Blue and Green, yet that\nis not necessarily the case. He launched the Whorl, but may not have\nlaunched it with any specific destinations in mind -- it doesn't seem to\nbe beyond the technology of the Whorl or its Crew to travel until they\nthink they have found suitable planets or until the deterioration of the\nWhorl forces them to pick the next best thing. GW has stated that\nTyphon did not know that the inhumi were on Blue/Green, so perhaps\nBlue/Green were not the specific destinations planned for the Whorl\n(otherwise, how could he have picked them and not known about the\ninhumi?). So perhaps the Whorl itself ended up (sort of) where it began\nwithout knowing. \n\nMy second rumination also has to do with Typhon and his intentions.\nMuch has been made over the change in character from the megalomaniacal\nTyphon to the more beneficent Pas, who is the kind of guy who if he\nloves something sets it free (to paraphrase Quetzal's Hallmark moment).\nPerhaps this was GW's twist on the old saw that the Lord works in\nmysterious ways. Typhon may unwittingly have been the instrument of the\nIncreate (that is, God) to carry out His will. GW has described Sev and\nthe NS as the story of a Christian, not Christ, and of a bad man\nbecoming good. Similarly, maybe the SS/LS are in part the story of a\nbad man (Typhon) doing good and carrying out, however unintentionally,\nthe Lord's will. And if that is so, that could explain how the Whorl\nends up at Blue/Green Urth/Ushas even if Typhon did not know of the\nfuture flood and splitting. He did not have to know that the splitting\nwould take place, he simply had to send the Whorl out and the Crew\nbrought it back (probably unwittingly themselves) \"home\" afterwards,\ncarrying out the Lord's will to repopulate the Urth after the flood a la\nMoses on the Ark. That part carries out the Lord's will. As for Pas'\nplan, well, the Crew continue to try to carry it out and the end of RTTW\nwhen they reboard the Whorl and launch it into space in search of a\nplanet to colonize.\n\n \n<< 4. Why and HOW do both planets become planets of intelligent \nplants? Some of Marc's old stuff might play in here, of course.>>\n\nOK, I plea for help here. Where are the intelligent plants??? I've\nread the whole NS/LS/SS troika and haven't seen any intelligent plants.\nAre the inhumi \"plants gone bad\" and I'm just missing it? I'm sure\nthere is something fundamental here I did not pick up on, please help! \n\n<< 5. What happened to the humans who lived through the coming\nof the \nNew Son on Green-Urth and Blue-Ushas? Severian still seems to be\nhaunting \nGreen in human form. What of the rest? Did they \"evolve\" into Neighbors\nand \nmaybe also inhumi? How? And, is there evidence? >>\n\nI think the evidence for this are all the parallels that Horn\nunwittingly draws between the Neighbor culture and \"ours.\" \n\n\n\n<< e. But I can see lots of objections to this, and so doubtless\ncan \nyou all.>>\n\nI agree, but the answer to that I think probably is that GW was\nborrowing themes and allegories instead of simply recasting event for\nevent from the Bible, much the way he plucked Yesod and Briah from\nKabbalistic theories without meaning to borrow it wholesale.\n\n <>\n\nVery fun! I really enjoyed your introductory weaving together of it all!\n\n\n- Shell" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gareth Jelley", "address": "gjelley at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2003-01-05T19:46:30+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Blue-Ushas; Green-Urth -- Problems", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Re: \"No, no, NO, GREEN is Urth\", I thought I'd add this on (from the\njoke\nangle), though it's not much of a joke unless you're an engineer. In\nvarious\ntypes of power cords, there tend to be three wires of different colors." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The\ncolors mean different things, depending on what kind of wiring it is,\nbut\nas\nfar as I know there is almost always a green, and it corresponds to:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"Earth\". (the others being \"line\", and \"neutral\")" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought the brown wire was the 'earth' wire... But I'm not an\nelectrician...\n\nBest,\n\nG." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2003-01-06T11:37:26+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Blue-Ushas; Green-Urth -- Problems", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 05/01/2003 19:46:30 Gareth Jelley wrote:\nRe: \"No, no, NO, GREEN is Urth\", I thought I'd add this on (from the\njoke\nangle), though it's not much of a joke unless you're an engineer. In\nvarious\ntypes of power cords, there tend to be three wires of different\ncolors. The\ncolors mean different things, depending on what kind of wiring it is,\nbut as\nfar as I know there is almost always a green, and it corresponds to:\n\"Earth\". (the others being \"line\", and \"neutral\")" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I thought the brown wire was the 'earth' wire... But I'm not an\nelectrician..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wire it that way and you'll blow the breakers. Here in Eurp brown is\nconventionally live.\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Bollen", "address": "abollen at internode.on.net" }, "date": "2003-01-06T15:53:37+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Blue-Ushas; Green-Urth -- Problems", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nutria wrote:\n You see, I think it possible that Wolfe's comment was serious,\nbut\nnot literal. Jesus took bread and said, \"This IS my body.\" Well, as\ntheologians (and recently others) have argued for centuries, how you take\nthis depends on what the meaning of \"is\" is. Green IS Urth. Sure it is. If\nyou want to see what Urth was like before the New Sun, take a look at\nGreen. Not Blue but Green is symbolically parallel to Urth. Maybe that's\nall Gene meant." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This reminds me of something I posted a while ago here on Roman/Byzantine\ncircus factions. In the hippodrome, there were four team colors: blue,\ngreen, white and red. The Blues and the Greens were the major teams; the\nothers were somehow subsidiary, White being a junior partner to Blue and Red\nto Green. You could see a parallel with the four whorls in LS/SS (with White\ncorresponding to the starcrosser whorl). The thought would be that Green and\nUrth go together because they are both deeply screwed up, requiring some\nmajor intervention to set right; whereas The Whorl and Blue just need some\ntinkering.\n\nI would bet quite large amounts of $$$$ that Wolfe had nothing like this\ncircus faction scheme in mind, but I like it anyway :) As a bonus, I can\nlink it back to Janus/Quadrifons - his four faces (according to some)\napparently represented the four seasons; and some people think the four\ncircus colors did also." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gareth Jelley", "address": "gjelley at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2003-01-06T22:26:34+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Blue-Ushas; Green-Urth -- Problems", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \nWire it that way and you'll blow the breakers. Here in Eurp brown is\nconventionally live." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": ":o)\n\nSee, I told you I wasn't an electrician ;o)\n\nAnon,\n\nG." } ] } ] }