Subject: (urth) Blue-Ushas; Green-Urth -- Problems

From: James Jordan <jbjordan4 at cox.net>
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 01:23:23 +0000

At 05:47 PM 12/23/2002, Nigel wrote:
>Marc wrote:
>
> >>I've already proposed several mechanisms, and
> >>Nigel Price has come up with an interesting
> >>further interpretation of the star system that
> >>is fascinating and may explain the theme of the
> >>doubled limbs.
>
>I take GW's comment to Marc very seriously, and believe that it is true, at
>least at a symbollic level. Green is, in part, a satire on greedy, warring,
>self-destroying Urth/Earth. Here is part of my recent off-list
>correspondence with Marc on the subject.
>
> >Thought #1: GW told you that Green is Urth, but
> >that doesn't preclude the possibility that Blue is
> >Ushas.

         Yeah. I'm thinking along those lines also. But shucks, I was so 
sure that my "another banggnab" theory was right! Well, there you are.
         Anyway, let's run with this, and see where it might lead. Assuming 
that GW was not joking, and also that his note was precise: Green is URTH, 
not Ushas. If it is, then Ushas must be around somewhere, and must be Blue.
         One can see possibilities here. The city of the sewers is Nessus, 
but so is the underwater city on Blue.
         Green is analogous to the old pre-gospel world that continues 
alongside the New Creation inaugurated by Jesus. It has been suggested that 
the Neighbors are like the pre-Christian philosophers, the inhumi like 
pagan gentiles in need of redemption, and the invaders from the Whorl 
(humans) are like the Christian world. The Whorl itself (especially Viron) 
is like Judaism, and Silk is like Jesus (for his narrative tracks the 
gospels pretty well, and then moves into Acts and Revelation).
         For Wolfe, the Christian world (Blue) is a sorry mess, but not as 
sorry as mess as the world outside of Christendom, which invades 
Christendom (like the inhumi) and needs to be redeemed by Christians 
behaving as they should (like Silk).
         As a grid -- one among others -- this works okay whether 
Green/Blue are Urth/Ushas or not. Here are some agenda items/problems for 
the thesis, assuming Wolfe was not joking.
         1. I think what we need to look for is an indication of how, or an 
indication THAT, the coming of the New Sun split Urth into Old Urth and New 
Ushas, and split Severian as well (since he seems to be on Green/Urth, as 
Marc has pointed out, and we know that he was on Ushas).
         Hmmm. Severian is the New Sun in a sense, but he is also the 
Representative of Urth, being made of Urthish matter. If Severian splits, 
then possibly Urth splits also. Any hint anywhere of Severian splitting? We 
know that there are other Severians, but I'm not recalling any notion of 
splitting....
         2. Time travel back to Severian's day is still a problem. Maybe 
I've missed the solution and it has been posted already. There needs to be 
a time-traveller along on the astral journey for it to be a time trip. Have 
we found such a person, on or off camera? Did Silk's "eternal moment" at 
the beginning of the narrative make him someone who could be an anchor for 
time travel?
         3. What was Typhon aiming for? He was aiming for Blue/Green; we 
know that. It makes sense to me that he might have sent the Whorl in a 
large circle to come back to Urth/Lune, where he could wake up as a 
two-headed god to be worshipped by people trained to do so by Pas. But that 
assumes Green is Lune, which we are rejecting in this hypothesis. Could 
Typhon have known not only of the future flood, but also of the future 
splitting? It seems to me that he would have to have known this, for this 
hypothesis to work.
         4. Why and HOW do both planets become planets of intelligent 
plants?  Some of Marc's old stuff might play in here, of course.
         5. What happened to the humans who lived through the coming of the 
New Son on Green-Urth and Blue-Ushas? Severian still seems to be haunting 
Green in human form. What of the rest? Did they "evolve" into Neighbors and 
maybe also inhumi? How? And, is there evidence?
         6. What is the meta-narrative underpinning? Silk is a Christ 
figure (not a Moses figure, Biblically, save as Moses is a type of Christ 
-- don't be fooled by the word "exodus," but see Luke 9:31, where what 
Jesus accomplished at Jerusalem is called his "exodus" -- something Wolfe 
surely knows, having heard this passage read annually at mass). Are we to 
think of Severian as more of a Noah figure, once we read all 12 volumes? 
Does it finally come out something like this?:
         a. An old pre-flood world, where the sons of god (interpreted as 
space beings) are marrying (interfering with) the daughters of men (human 
beings), and the world has become corrupt.
         b. A new Noah brings a flood.
         c. The world divides into higher gentiles (Neighbors) and raw 
barbarians (inhumi), while the Jews have a separate history (the Whorl) 
leading down to a savior (Silk).
         d. The new people emerge from the Whorl (Christians) and now must 
enter and deal with the twin worlds of the gentiles 
(Blue-Ushas/Green-Urth). The higher gentiles, the philosophers (Neighbors) 
yield to the new Christians (the humans).
         e. But I can see lots of objections to this, and so doubtless can 
you all.
         Anyway, just some thoughts, and just for fun.
         You see, I think it possible that Wolfe's comment was serious, but 
not literal. Jesus took bread and said, "This IS my body." Well, as 
theologians (and recently others) have argued for centuries, how you take 
this depends on what the meaning of "is" is. Green IS Urth. Sure it is. If 
you want to see what Urth was like before the New Sun, take a look at 
Green. Not Blue but Green is symbolically parallel to Urth. Maybe that's 
all Gene meant.
         But if he meant more, it's fun to try and track it down.

Nutria

--

---

From: Chris <rasputin_ at hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 02:46:22 +0000

Thank you James, for your comments; I'd never seen the interview you were 
referring to, and that probably saved me some headaches - though I may try 
to develop the theory anyway, just as an exercise (and who knows, it could 
be right in its own way, still).

Re: "No, no, NO, GREEN is Urth", I thought I'd add this on (from the joke 
angle), though it's not much of a joke unless you're an engineer. In various 
types of power cords, there tend to be three wires of different colors. The 
colors mean different things, depending on what kind of wiring it is, but as 
far as I know there is almost always a green, and it corresponds to: 
"Earth". (the others being "line", and "neutral")

I am interested in your points on the meta-narrative. I am uncomfortable 
going too far with the Silk-as-a-Christ-figure line, though I can see where 
it's coming from. To simplify what would otherwise be an overly-wordy post 
on my part, in essence I feel that if Wolfe had intended Silk as (primarily) 
a Christ-figure, we would have a whole different story on our hands.

I don't think Severian matches a Noah either; Noah wasn't the agent of God's 
flood, he simply was chosen to survive it and to make preparations to 
preserve life for after the flood. Severian in contrast actively 
precipitates his flood, and doesn't really do much of anything to prepare or 
to mitigate its destruction. I'd call him a Shiva-figure, but there are 
probably better descriptions.

Perhaps all planets, with their cycles of creation and destruction, are Urth 
(Ushas, Blue, Earth, and Green)?

>         But if he meant more, it's fun to try and track it down.

_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*  
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

--

---

From: Jeff Veyera <teflon93 at cox.net>
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 04:53:31 +0000

Chris wrote:

Teflon replies:

Well, we all know Gene IS an engineer, so that little in-joke may actually
fit.

Having re-read the Red Sun whorl visit portions of RttW again (esp. Chap 17)
some things gelled:

1.  The reference to Green made by Hoof is pretty damning to the overall
Green-Blue as Ushas-Lune hypothesis.  At first, I was struck by this
passage, made while on the ship in the Red Sun whorl: "Green came up, bigger
and brighter than we ever see it on Blue."  But then, later, Hoof says,
"Green was up above the main-mast, and it seemed like if we put up the main
top it would touch it.  Our Green is not as big as theirs, but ours was
plenty bright." Then, apparently back on Blue: "Out on the water there were
the stars and quite a bit of light from Green; for nighttime it was really
pretty bright, but there was sort of a shadow between the side and the
water.  Green was halfway up over to starboard."

Hide was born on Blue.  He has never known any other place, until the
journey to the Red Sun whorl.  It seems natural that he would describe what
he saw there in terms of what he knew from his own experience---thus he
recognizes the towers of Nessus for the landers they truly were, and sees
Lune as a larger, brighter version of Green.

2.  We've discussed the whole astral travel issue a lot.  The question arose
as to how they could go to the Red Sun whorl after the visit with Duke
Rigoglio.  Silkhorn explains, "I should explain to you both why we cannot go
to the sea [on Urth] directly, as I did to Scylla several days ago.  In
order to go to a place we must have with us someone who has been there, or
at least been in the area.  I don't know why that is so, but that is how it
seems to be.  I can go to Green---as I have at times---because I have been
there in the flesh.  I can go to the Red Sun Whorl, too, as we did a few
minutes ago, because Jahlee and I went there in the company of Duke Rigoglio
of Soldo.  He had been a Sleeper on the Whorl, and so had been there in the
flesh.  I cannot take us to the sea there, because I have never been on it.
Scylla has, to be sure, but ultimately Scylla is not among us."  This travel
is clearly spatial rather than temporal---when he went to Green, it was
Green at that moment.  Likewise, his visit to the Red Sun Whorl is most
likely at the equivalent time rather than in the past or future.  When
Silkhorn references the 300 year journey of the Whorl relative to the time
passage on the Red Sun whorl, he notes, "It's been much longer than that"
and later indicates his belief that it had been many centuries since
Cilinia/Scylla had died.  In Chap 19, he tells Juganu, "Think of a whorl so
old that even its seasons have worn out, a whorl on which they had jungles
like yours once, with wide-leafed plants and many flowers and huge trees.
It is too cold for that in our time..."  Note the "our" time
there---Silkhorn and company are travelling in space, not time.

--

---

From: Andy Robertson <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 10:18:05 +0000

Oh dear.   Yes, I think that is the reason Wolfe said this.    I had forgot
he is an engineer.

    hartshorn

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris" <rasputin_ at hotmail.com>

--

---

From: Joe Cilluffo <cilluff1 at optonline.net>
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 15:00:50 +0000

Nutria wrote:

<<
         Anyway, let's run with this, and see where it might lead.
Assuming 
that GW was not joking, and also that his note was precise: Green is
URTH, 
not Ushas. If it is, then Ushas must be around somewhere, and must be
Blue.
         One can see possibilities here. The city of the sewers is
Nessus, 
but so is the underwater city on Blue.
         Green is analogous to the old pre-gospel world that continues 
alongside the New Creation inaugurated by Jesus. It has been suggested
that 
the Neighbors are like the pre-Christian philosophers, the inhumi like 
pagan gentiles in need of redemption, and the invaders from the Whorl 
(humans) are like the Christian world. The Whorl itself (especially
Viron) 
is like Judaism, and Silk is like Jesus (for his narrative tracks the 
gospels pretty well, and then moves into Acts and Revelation).
         For Wolfe, the Christian world (Blue) is a sorry mess, but not
as 
sorry as mess as the world outside of Christendom, which invades 
Christendom (like the inhumi) and needs to be redeemed by Christians 
behaving as they should (like Silk).>>

First off, wow, excellent synthesis of it all! 

<<       1. I think what we need to look for is an indication of how, or
an 
indication THAT, the coming of the New Sun split Urth into Old Urth and
New 
Ushas, and split Severian as well (since he seems to be on Green/Urth,
as 
Marc has pointed out, and we know that he was on Ushas).>>

I'll take a stab at the HOW, as your synthesis above seems to be an
explanation of the THAT. : ) Regarding how it happened, could it be that
the same bifurcation that Burgondofara experienced also happened to the
planets themselves?  

         <<Any hint anywhere of Severian splitting? We 
know that there are other Severians, but I'm not recalling any notion of

splitting....>

What about Silkhorn being an "aspect" of Severian?  His walking around
unconsciously garbed like a torturer and carrying the torturer's sword
suggests this, and could be evidence of a split of Sev.

<<         3. What was Typhon aiming for? He was aiming for Blue/Green;
we 
know that. It makes sense to me that he might have sent the Whorl in a 
large circle to come back to Urth/Lune, where he could wake up as a 
two-headed god to be worshipped by people trained to do so by Pas. But
that 
assumes Green is Lune, which we are rejecting in this hypothesis. Could 
Typhon have known not only of the future flood, but also of the future 
splitting? It seems to me that he would have to have known this, for
this 
hypothesis to work.>>

Hmmm, that's a little tougher, but I have two musings on the subject.
First, we all assume that Typhon was aiming for Blue and Green, yet that
is not necessarily the case.  He launched the Whorl, but may not have
launched it with any specific destinations in mind -- it doesn't seem to
be beyond the technology of the Whorl or its Crew to travel until they
think they have found suitable planets or until the deterioration of the
Whorl forces them to pick the next best thing.  GW has stated that
Typhon did not know that the inhumi were on Blue/Green, so perhaps
Blue/Green were not the specific destinations planned for the Whorl
(otherwise, how could he have picked them and not known about the
inhumi?).  So perhaps the Whorl itself ended up (sort of) where it began
without knowing.  

My second rumination also has to do with Typhon and his intentions.
Much has been made over the change in character from the megalomaniacal
Typhon to the more beneficent Pas, who is the kind of guy who if he
loves something sets it free (to paraphrase Quetzal's Hallmark moment).
Perhaps this was GW's twist on the old saw that the Lord works in
mysterious ways.  Typhon may unwittingly have been the instrument of the
Increate (that is, God) to carry out His will.  GW has described Sev and
the NS as the story of a Christian, not Christ, and of a bad man
becoming good.  Similarly, maybe the SS/LS are in part the story of a
bad man (Typhon) doing good and carrying out, however unintentionally,
the Lord's will.  And if that is so, that could explain how the Whorl
ends up at Blue/Green Urth/Ushas even if Typhon did not know of the
future flood and splitting.  He did not have to know that the splitting
would take place, he simply had to send the Whorl out and the Crew
brought it back (probably unwittingly themselves) "home" afterwards,
carrying out the Lord's will to repopulate the Urth after the flood a la
Moses on the Ark.  That part carries out the Lord's will.  As for Pas'
plan, well, the Crew continue to try to carry it out and the end of RTTW
when they reboard the Whorl and launch it into space in search of a
planet to colonize.

<<     4. Why and HOW do both planets become planets of intelligent 
plants?  Some of Marc's old stuff might play in here, of course.>>

OK, I plea for help here.  Where are the intelligent plants???  I've
read the whole NS/LS/SS troika and haven't seen any intelligent plants.
Are the inhumi "plants gone bad" and I'm just missing it?  I'm sure
there is something fundamental here I did not pick up on, please help!  

<<         5. What happened to the humans who lived through the coming
of the 
New Son on Green-Urth and Blue-Ushas? Severian still seems to be
haunting 
Green in human form. What of the rest? Did they "evolve" into Neighbors
and 
maybe also inhumi? How? And, is there evidence? >>

I think the evidence for this are all the parallels that Horn
unwittingly draws between the Neighbor culture and "ours."  

<<         e. But I can see lots of objections to this, and so doubtless
can 
you all.>>

I agree, but the answer to that I think probably is that GW was
borrowing themes and allegories instead of simply recasting event for
event from the Bible, much the way he plucked Yesod and Briah from
Kabbalistic theories without meaning to borrow it wholesale.

         <<Anyway, just some thoughts, and just for fun.>>

Very fun! I really enjoyed your introductory weaving together of it all!

- Shell

--

---

From: Gareth Jelley <gjelley at btopenworld.com>
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 19:46:30 +0000

> > colors mean different things, depending on what kind of wiring it is,
but
> > "Earth". (the others being "line", and "neutral")

I thought the brown wire was the 'earth' wire... But I'm not an
electrician...

Best,

G.

--

---

From: matthew.malthouse <matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 11:37:26 +0000

>> > colors mean different things, depending on what kind of wiring it is,
but  as
>I thought the brown wire was the 'earth' wire... But I'm not an

Wire it that way and you'll blow the breakers.  Here in Eurp brown is
conventionally live.

Matthew

--

---

From: Andrew Bollen <abollen at internode.on.net>
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 15:53:37 +0000

> Green. Not Blue but Green is symbolically parallel to Urth. Maybe that's

This reminds me of something I posted a while ago here on Roman/Byzantine
circus factions. In the hippodrome, there were four team colors: blue,
green, white and red. The Blues and the Greens were the major teams; the
others were somehow subsidiary, White being a junior partner to Blue and Red
to Green. You could see a parallel with the four whorls in LS/SS (with White
corresponding to the starcrosser whorl). The thought would be that Green and
Urth go together because they are both deeply screwed up, requiring some
major intervention to set right; whereas The Whorl and Blue just need some
tinkering.

I would bet quite large amounts of $$$$ that Wolfe had nothing like this
circus faction scheme in mind, but I like it anyway :) As a bonus,  I can
link it back to Janus/Quadrifons - his four faces (according to some)
apparently represented the four seasons; and some people think the four
circus colors did also.

--

---

From: Gareth Jelley <gjelley at btopenworld.com>
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 22:26:34 +0000

> Wire it that way and you'll blow the breakers.  Here in Eurp brown is

:o)

See, I told you I wasn't an electrician ;o)

Anon,

G.

--