{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3756", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3756, "subject": "DOORS: The Hero, The Otherworld, The Ending", "messages": 23, "voices": 8, "first": "2003-01-14T21:53:21+00:00", "last": "2003-01-22T14:51:45+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2003-01-14T21:53:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) DOORS: The Hero, The Otherworld, The Ending", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So far people have been mainly wondering about the hero's name (singular).\nThis is valid, of course, and could lead to something, but it seems at the\nmoment to be a (perhaps temporary) dead end.\n\nSince \"identity\" is such a strong part of TAD, and since the goddess\nclearly has so many names, it seems like an unnecessary straitjacket to\nidentify a single name as the hero's. Better to list the various names, I\nthink, and look at how they may or may not represent different aspects of\nthe same character.\n\nTHERE ARE DOORS is, I think, an interesting take on the work of Robert\nGraves: the most Gravesean work Wolfe has ever done. But it also strikes\nme as having the structure and tone of Chesterton's THE MAN WHO WAS\nTHURSDAY, including the ending, with twists along the way. I cannot\ncomment on the Kafka content, since I still have not read THE CASTLE which\nis even mentioned in the text (\"Das Schloss\"), but I can detect some Kafka\nanyway (beyond the \"Herr Kay\").\n\nTHE HERO\n\nI am struck by the sense of continuity between the men who are lovers of\nthe goddess, but I don't know if it is exclusively the \"Wolfe\nreincarnation\" theme or the \"Wolfe spirit possession\" theme. That is to\nsay, is Green a reincarnation of Captain Billy? Perhaps (and thus the\ninterest he has in the Captain's desk is more than just the lure of the\nhidden locket showing the goddess: he had that desk in a previous life),\nand yet we also have the direct evidence/opinion that the hero is \"Kay\"\nbecause he is a \"reincarnation\" of the not-yet-dead Herr Klamm, which\nsuggests that for Klamm the possessing spirit of \"goddess's lover\" has\nmoved on, from Klamm to the hero.\n\nThis bears another note: Klamm is now \"step-father\" to the goddess, a role\nhe enjoys but not without some pain. It seems as though a man's biological\nage is the central factor: Klamm is now too old to be the lover, and is\nthus reduced to a supporting role as step-father. If this holds true, then\nthe Other World (\"Fatherless World\"?) has something that looks like male\nmenopause -- that is to say, men there have a biological clock with regards\nto the goddess.\n\nTHE OTHERWORLD\n\nHow does Otherworld regard the goddess? At first one might think that they\nare all goddess worshippers, but it actually seems quite different.\nGoddess worship seems to be a religion among men only: they dedicate\nthemselves to her and thus to a life of chastity, rather than having sex\none time and dying like salmon/drones. Men who marry give up their dolls.\nThe women seem to tolerate this worship, but they break out in violence at\ntimes (attacking men, destroying dolls). It seems that the women are not\non good terms with the goddess.\n\nSo what is Otherworld society like? It is human but with aspects of the\nsocial insect world. The following is unstated in the novel, but I suspect\nit is true: Otherworld women carry the burden of society, since the men are\nall dying drones (no doubt here); like insects, society is divided into the\nmass of sterile female workers and super-fertile queens (little doubt\nhere), and as such, every non-impregnated woman is seeking fertilization as\na way to vault up from worker to queen level (somewhat speculative). Every\n\"Pawn\" wants to become a \"Queen.\" If this is granted, then reproduction\nfor Otherworld women is a Power trip rather than a Love trip (which seems\npretty clear when the wife must convince her husband to die in order for\nher to have his children).\n\nWilliam North is trying to overthrow the government, if not the whole\ncivilization. He is all about Power. He seems to be trying to create a\nmasculinist movement or subvert existing ones in order to shake things up.\nHis taking on the name \"William\" may be an attempt on his part to lure the\ngoddess into pistol range. More than a rabble-rouser, more than an\niconoclast, he may be a wannabe goddess-killer. (Thus the battle seen by\nGraves between the goddess and the usurping thunder god.)\n\nTHE ENDING\n\nWow, what an ending! It seems like a happy ending to a romantic comedy:\nwhen the hero escapes the clutches of the loveless reproductive enslaver, a\nfemale version of the \"breed farmer\" found in such different films as\n\"Shakespeare in Love\" and \"How The West Was Won\" (men who are trying to buy\nthe heroine based on her birthing capacity, whereas she is already in love\nwith another man), we cheer for him as we cheer for\nshe-who-gets-away-to-follow-Love.\n\nAnd yay, the hero will not fall into the age-trap that Herr Klamm fell\ninto! He will follow without fear!\n\nBut when the cheering dies down, we come to understand that the hero is\ngoing to his death, with a smile (however \"archaic\" a smile) on his lips\nand a song in his heart. He may get to see the goddess one more time, but\nhe might not: it is death to go to Overwood, the physical land of the\ngoddess somewhere out west, and he is going to Overwood. He will not be\nlike Klamm because he will be dead; he will not age into her step-father\nbecause he will be dead.\n\nIn making this choice, while he is being true to himself and his dream, he\nis also paradoxically conforming to Overworld: where men die for Love. The\nchoice that Fanny gave him, to live with her and live through the sex act,\nwould make him like a god in Overworld -- more specifically, he would be an\nembodiment of those potent stag fertility gods. As such he would be an\nequal to the goddess, at least in the way that she travels to Visitor World\n(our world) and acts like a goddess. He would be Power, which is the polar\nopposite of Love. But William North is Power (thundering temper,\nthundering guns), and the hero rejects that.\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "cilluff1 at optonline.net", "address": "cilluff1 at optonline.net" }, "date": "2003-01-14T23:29:36+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) DOORS: The Hero, The Otherworld, The Ending", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mantis wrote:\n\n<>>\n\nThis was my take on it. In support of this, the goddess supplies the name\nAdam for the hero, making me think that he is the \"first man\" for her split\nagain and again through all these worlds/lives. Also, she does not comment\nor reply to his comment that she is drawn to men name William. Of course,\nNorth and Klamm both are Williams, and the hero obviously is not them --\nalthough perhaps I should just say he does not seem to be them. I guess\nthe fact that he meets them does not preclude them really being the \"same\"\nperson from different worlds. In fact, this would explain why Klamm calls\nthe hero \"Herr Kay,\" which is his own name. \n\nThe only wrinkle in the \"hero as reincarnated Cpt. Billy\" theory is Lara's\nbread test, where he must drop the piece of bread into the wine and if it\nsinks he can follow her. Why would he need to do this if he really were\nthe same man that Lara herself has been \"following\" (or at least \"finding\")\nagain and again? Of course, the dropping the bread into the wine obviously\nconjures up the Catholic sacrement of Communion, and suggests that the hero\nis in a sense being brought from the dead or reborn.\n\n\n<<>\n\nInteresting take that North is not really Wiliam, but takes it on to lure\nthe goddess. I do like your reasoning though, but am not sure how he would\nknow the goddess likes Bills.\n\n<>\n\nI'm not sure why he would die. He can have sexual relations with a woman\nand live even in the other world -- Fanny herself remarked as such. So why\nwould it be death to follow the goddess? I have only read TAD once but\nmust have missed that part, I trust your keen eye to have picked it up but\nwhere is this reference?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2003-01-15T07:47:14+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) DOORS: The Hero, The Otherworld, The Ending", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "mantis wrote:\nTHERE ARE DOORS is, I think, an interesting take on the work of Robert\nGraves: the most Gravesean work Wolfe has ever done." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, no! Not you, too! " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "William North is trying to overthrow the government, if not the whole\ncivilization. He is all about Power. He seems to be trying to create a\nmasculinist movement or subvert existing ones in order to shake things up.\nHis taking on the name \"William\" may be an attempt on his part to lure the\ngoddess into pistol range. More than a rabble-rouser, more than an\niconoclast, he may be a wannabe goddess-killer. (Thus the battle seen by\nGraves between the goddess and the usurping thunder god.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You have noted Graves' position vis-a-vis earth and sky; needless to say,\nGraves' sympathies were with the goddess. Wolfe's, needless to say, are with\nthe other side. That being so, North, the wannabe goddess-killer, would be,\nin effect, in the service of the God of the Bible. Green, following the\ngoddess, would be lusting after the very sort of figure that the Old\nTestament prophets were forever railing against.\n\nThat would make North a good guy, Green a bad guy, in Wolfe's cosmology,\nwouldn't it? How can this reading square with Wolfe's known religious views,\nand his own opinion that THERE ARE DOORS is his best book?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-01-16T13:54:13+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) DOORS: The Hero, The Otherworld, The Ending", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 1/14/03 5:29 PM, cilluff1 at optonline.net at cilluff1 at optonline.net wrote:\nOf course, North and Klamm both are Williams, and the hero obviously is not\nthem --\nalthough perhaps I should just say he does not seem to be them. I guess\nthe fact that he meets them does not preclude them really being the \"same\"\nperson from different worlds. In fact, this would explain why Klamm calls\nthe hero \"Herr Kay,\" which is his own name." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Klamm calls the hero \"Herr Kay\" because Klamm is a character from Kafka's\nTHE CASTLE, and the protagonist of that book is always referred to as K. I\ndon't know why Klamm says K. \"was myself also,\" though. (303, hc) Nor do I\nknow why he calls K. \"an old friend\": in THE CASTLE Klamm never speaks to\nK., nor is there any hint that Klamm has any personal interest in K.\n\nMantis's suggestion that Klamm is modelled on Kissinger is an intriguing\none, which hadn't occurred to me; but I would imagine Wolfe would be likely\nto loathe Kissinger, both for being \"soft on Communism\" and for his amoral\napproach to foreign policy (the polar opposite of the Narrator's\n\"statecraft\" in TBOTSS).\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "cilluff1 at optonline.net", "address": "cilluff1 at optonline.net" }, "date": "2003-01-16T14:41:36+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) DOORS: The Hero, The Otherworld, The Ending", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Adam wrote:\n\n<>\n\nThe Kafka reference is straightforward, you are certainly right there, but\nWolfe must have had something else in mind other than a thinly veiled (if\nveiled at all) reference to someone else's story. Without a doubt the\nnames are an homage, but I think it doesn't go far enough simply to detect\nreferences to others' works in Wolfe's stories, and simply because it is a\nreference to Kafka doesn't mean there is a reason within TAD's universe for\nwhy Klamm calls him Herr Kay, or that TAD's Klamm is little more than a\ntransplant to TAD's universe of Kafka's Klamm. \n\n<<>\n\nWell, that critcism assumes that GW views Klamm sympathetically as he would\nnot if Klamm=Kissinger. Kissinger is soft on communism, and Klamm is soft\non the matriarchal, paganist society of the goddess: perhaps GW views both\nas, and intended both to be, unsympathetic, soft characters. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2003-01-15T21:15:30+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) DOORS: The Hero, The Otherworld, The Ending", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy responding to Mantis:\nYou have noted Graves' position vis-a-vis earth and sky; needless to say,\nGraves' sympathies were with the goddess. Wolfe's, needless to say, are with\nthe other side. That being so, North, the wannabe goddess-killer, would be,\nin effect, in the service of the God of the Bible. Green, following the\ngoddess, would be lusting after the very sort of figure that the Old\nTestament prophets were forever railing against.\n\nThat would make North a good guy, Green a bad guy, in Wolfe's cosmology,\nwouldn't it? How can this reading square with Wolfe's known religious views,\nand his own opinion that THERE ARE DOORS is his best book?\n\n\nCrush butts in:\nI'd say at this point, Wolfe enchantment by Graves' White Goddess is a\nforegone conclusion -- trackable over several novels and series. So the\nquestion is rather \"What does Graves' White Goddess mean to Wolfe\nconsidering his Christianity\".\n\nSoooo, here I go:\n\nWolfe almost always presents the Goddess stand-ins as generally in league\nwith his protagonists (in the Soldier series there's some ambiguity here).\nIn the Long Sun, the Goddess' aspect as Love (Kypris/Aphrodite) is the\nVironese/Pagan image of the Outsider/Christian God --- the image selected by\nthe Outsider for himself.\n\nNow, consider that Wolfe himself came to Christianity by **first** falling\nin love with his eventual wife, Rosemary.\n\nPerhaps Wolfe believes that the true God drew him to Himself through\nsomething so sublunary (note the pun) as romantic love. Perhaps that is the\nstory he is telling over and over through Graves' White Goddess.\n\n-- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2003-01-17T11:11:08+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) DOORS: The Hero, The Otherworld, The Ending", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"James Wynn\" \nWolfe almost always presents the Goddess stand-ins as generally in league\nwith his protagonists (in the Soldier series there's some ambiguity here).\nIn the Long Sun, the Goddess' aspect as Love (Kypris/Aphrodite) is the\nVironese/Pagan image of the Outsider/Christian God --- the image selected\nby\nthe Outsider for himself." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think we have to look to what seems to be that traditional mode of\nCatholic Fabulation, the creation of \"little gods\".\n\nTo put it baldly, Catholicism came from the imposition of a male-centered\nSemitic religion on top of a dyarchical male/female European pantheon.\nThe Goddess keeps on bubbling back up - as Mary, as Theresa - and the Little\nGods start reappearing as Saints.\n\nIn Catholic Fabulation, the Little Gods (the remains of the old male/female\naryan pantheon) pop up again and again.\n\nYou see this in Lewis, with his eldils, and in Tolkien with his Valar: in\nChesterton's Sunday: and you see it in Laffery with his numerous\ntrickster-gods and demons.\n\nAnd of course in Wolfe, you see if NOT with say the gods of mainframe (who\nare not simply false images of God, but false replicas of the Little Gods)\nbut in the numerous lost and fugitive images of ambiguous sub-divinity -\nTzadkiel, and the Mother, for example.\n\n(I had a point somewhere, but , . . )\n\n\nThe goddess in \"There are doors\" seems to me to be a conscious but\nunsuccessful attempt to address this *directly*. Wolfe is addressing the\n\"little god\" theme directly, rather than subconsciously, and it does not\nreally work. Which is why it is not a very satisfying book, full of loss\nand emptyness.\n\n hartshorn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2003-01-17T16:00:04+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) DOORS: The Hero, The Otherworld, The Ending", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hartshorn declaimed:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In Catholic Fabulation, the Little Gods (the remains of the \nold male/female aryan pantheon) pop up again and again." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, that's _one_ way of looking at it. A Catholic perspective\nmight be a bit different -- either mumbling about \"foreshadowing,\"\nor, more constructively, suggesting that the pantheon was there \nbecause the structure of the True Faith[tm] is deep in the human\npsyche and so we naturally create mythologies that resemble it.\n(A particularly extreme Catholic might simply deny that there was\nany connection at all.) And some - this is the direction I tend\n- would claim that in taking up the \"good\" of the local religions,\nCatholicism essentially \"baptises\" them, viz. St Brigid." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You see this in Lewis, with his eldils, and in Tolkien with \nhis Valar: in Chesterton's Sunday: and you see it in Laffery \nwith his numerous trickster-gods and demons." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Whoa. Hee-haw. Hey. HOLD IT.\n\n1. Lewis wasn't a Catholic and would have been very annoyed\nat you for suggesting he was.\n\n2. The Eldila and the Valar are not \"local gods\"; they're \nangelic powers, pure and simple. \n Tolkien uses the term \"gods\" of the Valar to make clearer\nthe difference in power between them and the Children of Ilúvatar.\nI strongly suspect that, if he had ever published the Silm., he\nmight have deleted that word.\n Lewis's Eldila ... well, it's a bit more complex, but the\nshort version is (1) Each planet has its governing spirit,\nor _oyarsa_; (2) each of these has a sort of miniature version\nor reflection on each of the other planets; (3) the _oyarsa_ \nof Earth is, of course, Satan; (4) the mini-oyarses of Earth,\nfallen with their master, fool humans into thinking that they\nare the gods of mythology. In short, the old explanation that\nthe \"gods\" are demons (fallen angels) tricking humanity.\n\n3. Friday is pretty clearly not a \"little god\" but God.\n\n4. I haven't read Lafferty in a dog's age..." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2003-01-17T16:25:30+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) DOORS: The Hero, The Otherworld, The Ending", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" \n1. Lewis wasn't a Catholic and would have been very annoyed\nat you for suggesting he was." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, he was a Mere Christian. But he wrote CATHOLIC FABULATION. Which is\nessentially science fiction that presumes the Catholic God really,\nobjectively, exists, and sort of goes on from there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "2. The Eldila and the Valar are not \"local gods\"; they're\n angelic powers, pure and simple." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Within the constraints of CF this is the only possibility. There is only\none God. But the lesser angels start looking like little gods.\n\n\n\nYou will find that Lewis attributes the term \"god\" to his Oyarses in full\nknowledge of the fact that the medaeval syncretists did exactly the same -\ncalling each tutelary angel a \"god\" and identifying it with the classical\nfigure.\n\nIt is really illuminating to consider Wolfe's work and in particular his\ntreatment of \"gods\" through the prism of Tolkien and Lewis\n\n\n\n\n3. Friday is pretty clearly not a \"little god\" but God.\n\nSunday, surely? Well, maybe you are right there." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2003-01-17T16:39:01+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) DOORS: The Hero, The Otherworld, The Ending", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "1. Lewis wasn't a Catholic and would have been very annoyed at you \nfor suggesting he was." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, he was a Mere Christian. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, he was a high-church Anglican. He wrote about \"mere \nChristianity\" because he (correctly) regarded the \"basics\"\nof the Christian faith as more important than the differences\nbetween the various denominations. (In fact, he had somewhat\nhostile attitudes towards Catholicism, though _not_ towards \nCatholics.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But he wrote CATHOLIC FABULATION. Which is\nessentially science fiction that presumes the Catholic God \nreally, objectively, exists, and sort of goes on from there." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You here conflate the terms \"Catholic\" and \"Christian.\" While\n\"Catholic\" is a sub-set of \"Christian,\" it does not therefore\nfollow that all Christian fabulation is Catholic. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "2. The Eldila and the Valar are not \"local gods\"; they're angelic \npowers, pure and simple." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Within the constraints of CF this is the only possibility. \nThere is only one God. But the lesser angels start looking\nlike little gods." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "... if little gods is what you are inclined to see, yes. I\nbelieve that you are viewing these Christian fabulists through\nthe spectacles of your own inclinations, whatever those may\nbe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You will find that Lewis attributes the term \"god\" to his \nOyarses in full knowledge of the fact that the medaeval \nsyncretists did exactly the same - calling each tutelary \nangel a \"god\" and identifying it with the classical figure." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mmm. I don't know enough about \"tutelary angels\" to answer\nthis. I am quite certain, however, that Lewis's use of the\nterm \"gods\" wrt the Oyarses was not intended to suggest that\nthey were gods, but that humans would take them for gods. A\nniggling difference, perhaps, from where you sit; from where\nLewis sat, it would seem quite important - the difference\nbetween harmless or even \"wholesome\" fabulation and heresy, \nin fact. -- note that I do not argue that your point of view\nis \"wrong,\" only that one shouldn't attribute its views and\nconclusions to Lewis (Tolkien, etc.)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is really illuminating to consider Wolfe's work and in \nparticular his treatment of \"gods\" through the prism of \nTolkien and Lewis" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "With this, at least, I have no quarrel -- even agree. Wolfe\n_is_ working in a kind of tradition that would include all\nfour of the writers you name." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "3. Friday is pretty clearly not a \"little god\" but God.\n\nSunday, surely? Well, maybe you are right there." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Duuuh. Terminal brainfart. Yes, Sunday.\n\n--Dan'l" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Weber", "address": "mweber at library.berkeley.edu" }, "date": "2003-01-17T16:40:24+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) DOORS: The Hero, The Otherworld, The Ending", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 04:25 PM 1/17/03 +0000, Andy wrote:\n----- Original Message -----\nFrom: \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "1. Lewis wasn't a Catholic and would have been very annoyed\nat you for suggesting he was." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You could say he was a \"small-c\" catholic. The Apostles' and the Nicene \nCreed (both of which are features of the Anglican Church's Morning Prayer & \nCommunion services) each include a line professing belief in \"the holy \ncatholic church\". Obviously, he had doctrinal differences with the Church \nof Rome, but it didn't prevent him from accepting them as fellow Christians." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, he was a Mere Christian. But he wrote CATHOLIC FABULATION. Which is\nessentially science fiction that presumes the Catholic God really,\nobjectively, exists, and sort of goes on from there." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lewis was an Anglican, and not just because of the accident of his having \nbeen born in England. There's no indication in any of his devotional or \ndidactic writings that he disagreed with any of the teachings of the C. of E.\n\nMERE CHRISTIANITY should be understood, not as an explication of the \ntotality of Lewis' beliefs and sympathies, but--as the title states--the \n\"bottom line\" of Christian belief and practice; i.e., what all Christian \nsects, denominations, and divisions hold in common despite their doctrinal \nand practical differences. I don't have a copy handy, but I'm fairly sure \nit was intended as a primer for non-Christians, or non-practicing Christians.\n\n\nMatthew Weber\nCuratorial Assistant\nMusic Library\nUniversity of California, Berkeley\n\nThough he slay me, yet will I trust in him.\n The Holy Bible (The Old Testament): _The Book of Job_, chapter \n13, verse 15" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2003-01-17T16:52:11+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) DOORS: The Hero, The Otherworld, The Ending", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lewis was an Anglican, and not just because of the accident \nof his having been born in England. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Northern Ireland, actually..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There's no indication in any of his devotional or \ndidactic writings that he disagreed with any of the teachings \nof the C. of E." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, there's a quibble, and one that shows him to be very\nHigh Church indeed: in \"Letters to Malcolm\" he indicates,\nif not a belief, at least a _desire_ to believe, in Purgatory.\n\n(who is beginning to think he knows far more about CSL than he should)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2003-01-17T17:03:14+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) DOORS: The Hero, The Otherworld, The Ending", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "---- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" \nTo: \nMmm. I don't know enough about \"tutelary angels\" to answer\nthis. I am quite certain, however, that Lewis's use of the\nterm \"gods\" wrt the Oyarses was not intended to suggest that\nthey were gods, but that humans would take them for gods." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I should explain that reading C S Lewis's books converted me to Christianity\nwhen I was young (but I got better) , and I was an obsessive fan of Lewis,\nTolkien and the Inklings for years.\n\nI think, however, that you are fearing a word here.\n\nWhen Lewis wrote (at the triumphant climax of PERELANDRA) that his hero was\nno longer going to regard Malacandra and Perelandra as eldilia, but as \"Mars\nand Venus\" I believe he fully understood everything that you are worried\nabout and more.\n\nI invite you to reread that bit.\n\n\n\nWhether or not this is heresy does not concern me, much. I am an\nAsatruistic pagan nowadays :).\n\n\nWhat I am trying to explain by the coinage \"Catholic Fabulation\" is that\nthere is a tradition of storytelling that runs along these lines.\n\nIt includes the Inklings' work (Williams too) but does NOT include such\nunambiguously religious works as, for example, A CANTICLE FOR LEIBOWIZT\n\nThe difference lies in the treatment of the supernatural.\n\nCF embraces the supernatural and **enables** it:\n\nIt occurs in the stories, but in drag, in disguise.\n\nThe keynote is that angels or demons or gods pop up and they pretend to be\naliens. God pops up, but he pretends to be The Increate or The Emperor Over\nThe Sea.\n\nI believe Wolfe is writing WITHIN that tradition.\n\nI furthur believe it goes back a long way - and that it is a very European\ntradition, enforced by the historical fact that the ancient giants and gods\nand fairies had to be fitted into a dominating Semitic/Christian framework.\n\nIt occurs in many Arthurian romances, for example, where the ancient Celtic\nlegends have to be jammed ino the framework of Christian explanation: and\nso in Beowulf.\n\n\nTolkien reflexed back on this - he was in love with \"The Northern Thing\"\nlike Lewis, but he had to fit it within \"The Southermn Thing\" -\nChristianity - as a worldview. Wolfe is doing the same thing and may be\ntaking both Tolkien and Lewis as mentors." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2003-01-17T17:43:36+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) DOORS: The Hero, The Otherworld, The Ending", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I should explain that reading C S Lewis's books converted me \nto Christianity when I was young (but I got better) , and I \nwas an obsessive fan of Lewis, Tolkien and the Inklings for years." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Those books, and especially \"Mere Christianity,\" preserved me in \nChristian faith at a time when I was particularly prone to falling\noff. I find them far less, ah, persuasive now, but they served\ntheir purpose at the time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think, however, that you are fearing a word here." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps. I think, rather, that I am attempting to use words \nclearly. Words tend to get in between us and \"reality,\" but \nwe can minimize that by using them carefully (and remembering\nnot to let them use us)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When Lewis wrote (at the triumphant climax of PERELANDRA) \nthat his hero was no longer going to regard Malacandra and \nPerelandra as eldilia, but as \"Mars and Venus\" I believe he \nfully understood everything that you are worried about and more.\n\nI invite you to reread that bit." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I agree with what you say, and while I disagree with\nyour interpretation of it, I don't think the list at large\nprobably cares very much, so I'll drop it at this point." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Whether or not this is heresy does not concern me, much. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This was not my point; nor do I (as a practicing Catholic)\nnecessarily consider it heresy. My point was that _Lewis_,\nwho was far more conservative than I, would have considered\nit heresy, and so a liberal dose of caution is indicated \nprior to attributing such a view to him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am an Asatruistic pagan nowadays :)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And I don't even know what that means. Neither the dictionary\nnor Google helped me any." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What I am trying to explain by the coinage \"Catholic \nFabulation\" is that there is a tradition of storytelling that \nruns along these lines.\n\nIt includes the Inklings' work (Williams too) but does NOT \ninclude such unambiguously religious works as, for example, \nA CANTICLE FOR LEIBOWIZT" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suppose I'm quibbling about the word \"Catholic\" because\nit seems confining - you point out Williams, and I agree;\nI might add Tim Powers and James Blaylock as writers who \nhave worked in this tradition. Possibly Connie Willis, but\nthat may be pushing your intent. \n\nAnd the point of my quibble is that the word \"Catholic\" is\nso strongly associated, in most peoples' minds, with the\nRoman Catholic church that -- well, that I didn't even feel\na need to say \"Roman\" when I identified my own denominational\nassociation above. It seems better to use the word (mere) \nChristian to avoid confusion - for, again, clarity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The difference lies in the treatment of the supernatural.\n\nCF embraces the supernatural and **enables** it:\n\nIt occurs in the stories, but in drag, in disguise.\n\nThe keynote is that angels or demons or gods pop up and they \npretend to be aliens. God pops up, but he pretends to be The \nIncreate or The Emperor Over The Sea.\n\nI believe Wolfe is writing WITHIN that tradition." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nothing here I'd even begin to disagree with. You've identified\nthe elements of a tradition that (as you say) goes back a long\nway. However, this ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I furthur believe it goes back a long way - and that it is a \nvery European tradition, enforced by the historical fact that \nthe ancient giants and gods and fairies had to be fitted into \na dominating Semitic/Christian framework." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "while related, seems to be almost the reverse process: where \nCF (I like the initials, they're usefully ambiguous 8*) ) \ndisguises Christian entities as \"naturalistic\" entities -- \neg, angels as aliens -- the older syncretism disguised non-\nChristian entities as Christian entities -- e.g, a goddess\nas St. Brigid." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It occurs in many Arthurian romances, for example, where the \nancient Celtic legends have to be jammed ino the framework of \nChristian explanation: and so in Beowulf." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think what's going on in Beowulf is a bit more complex --\nif you've read \"The Monsters and the Critics?\" To do with\nthe poetic expression of a transitional period when the \nculture had nominally adopted Christianity but was still \nlargely pagan in outlook, language, and traditions." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tolkien reflexed back on this - he was in love with \"The \nNorthern Thing\" like Lewis, but he had to fit it within \"The \nSouthermn Thing\" - Christianity - as a worldview. Wolfe\nis doing the same thing and may be taking both Tolkien and\nLewis as mentors." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again, I should not be the least surprised. He could do\nfar worse." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2003-01-17T18:39:09+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) DOORS: The Hero, The Otherworld, The Ending", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "OK. Do you have a better term than \"Catholic fabulation?\" It seems that\nwould resolve our remaining differences.\n\n\n----- Original Message -----\nFrom: \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" \nAgain, I should not be the least surprised. He could do\nfar worse." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2003-01-17T18:52:45+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) DOORS: The Hero, The Otherworld, The Ending", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "OK. Do you have a better term than \"Catholic fabulation?\" \nIt seems that would resolve our remaining differences." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I guess I don't understand why \"Christian Fabulation\" won't\ndo here, which is why I like the idea of just calling it \"CF\"\nand leaving the \"C\" semi-ambiguous. Though \"CatFab\" has a nice\nring to it.\n\nYour use of the word Catholic seems to stem from the \nproposition that \"Catholicism came from the imposition of \na male-centered Semitic religion on top of a dyarchical \nmale/female European pantheon.\" While this is accurate enough\nfrom one point of view, it seems to me that, at the time and \nin the place where this occurred, the words \"Catholic\" and\n\"Christian\" were essentially synonymous ... and since the\nOrthodox church inherits much of the same thing, the primary\nfunction of saying \"Catholic\" here would be to exclude\n\"Protestant\" Christianity. Yet members of Protestant sects\ndefinitely seem to write this sort of thing ... \n\nI also understand that you want a word which would exclude,\nsay, A CANTICLE FOR LIEBOWITZ. (H'mmm ... would you include\nA CASE OF CONSCIENCE, or HYPERION?) It seems to me that the\nword \"fabulation\" does that fairly effectively. Or perhaps\n\"Christian Mythopoieic Fantasy,\" which would be accurate but\nugly ..." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Weber", "address": "mweber at library.berkeley.edu" }, "date": "2003-01-17T19:02:57+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) DOORS: The Hero, The Otherworld, The Ending", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 11:52 AM 1/17/03 -0700, Dan'l wrote:\nYour use of the word Catholic seems to stem from the\nproposition that \"Catholicism came from the imposition of\na male-centered Semitic religion on top of a dyarchical\nmale/female European pantheon.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l, I think I'm getting your posts before Andy's, so excuse me for \nreacting to him through you.\n\nAnyway, what exactly is this \"dyarchical male/female European \npantheon\"? Are we talking about the Horned God & Lady thing? I thought it \nhad been pretty well established that the so-called Old Religion was mostly \ninvented by Gerald Gardner. There were multitudes of local practices and \nbeliefs across the whole of Europe, and lots of them were similar, but \nWotan is not Zeus is not Lud.\n\nOh, and to answer your question, Asatru is a contemporary revival of Old \nNorse pre-Christian religion.\n\n\nMatthew Weber\nCuratorial Assistant\nMusic Library\nUniversity of California, Berkeley\n\nThough he slay me, yet will I trust in him.\n The Holy Bible (The Old Testament): _The Book of Job_, chapter \n13, verse 15" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Weber", "address": "mweber at library.berkeley.edu" }, "date": "2003-01-18T02:54:12+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) DOORS: The Hero, The Otherworld, The Ending", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lewis was an Anglican, and not just because of the accident\nof his having been born in England." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Northern Ireland, actually..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Coorect, of course." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There's no indication in any of his devotional or\ndidactic writings that he disagreed with any of the teachings\nof the C. of E." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, there's a quibble, and one that shows him to be very\nHigh Church indeed: in \"Letters to Malcolm\" he indicates,\nif not a belief, at least a _desire_ to believe, in Purgatory." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Although it's true that the 39 Articles pooh-pooh Purgatory, it's \nimportant to remember that they were written by Puritans. Modern \nAnglo-Catholic practice and belief tramples all over them.\n\nI think Lewis' A-C tendencies have been overstated by the Hooper wing \nof Lewisites, just as the Wheaton College wing has overstated his \nevangelical leanings. The reality of Lewis is more complex than \neither (see A. N. Wilson's biography for a fairly balanced portrayal).\n\nMatt\n\nTo many people Victorian wit and humor is summed up by Punch, whose \nevery joke is supposed to end with \"Collapse of Stout Party\", though \nthis phrase tends to be as elusive as \"Elementary, my dear Watson\" in \nthe Sherlock Holmes sagas.\n\tR. Pearsall, Collapse of Stout Party (1975), Introduction" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-01-18T15:39:03+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) DOORS: The Hero, The Otherworld, The Ending", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 1/15/03 1:47 AM, Roy C. Lackey at rclackey at stic.net wrote:\nYou have noted Graves' position vis-a-vis earth and sky; needless to say,\nGraves' sympathies were with the goddess. Wolfe's, needless to say, are with\nthe other side. That being so, North, the wannabe goddess-killer, would be,\nin effect, in the service of the God of the Bible. Green, following the\ngoddess, would be lusting after the very sort of figure that the Old\nTestament prophets were forever railing against.\n\nThat would make North a good guy, Green a bad guy, in Wolfe's cosmology,\nwouldn't it? How can this reading square with Wolfe's known religious views,\nand his own opinion that THERE ARE DOORS is his best book?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can't comment on the Graves angle. But my reading of the book, for what\nit's worth, is that it takes off from a certain view of gender relations\nwhich around that time, iirc, had been popularized by George Gilder's book\nSEXUAL SUICIDE, though I doubt it originated with him. As I understand it\n(not having read Gilder), this view asserts that men are naturally predatory\nand violent, and that it is women who keep civilization going by luring men\ninto going against their nature and becoming husbands and fathers. (Gilder\nwent on to say that the \"bait\" with which women lured men was the role of\npatriarchal superiority in the home, and hence feminism would destroy\ncivilization by removing the incentive for men to become family men; but I\ndon't see this part as being reflected in TAD.) Whether or not Wolfe\nbelieves this, it seems to me that in TAD he is dramatizing this view by\npushing it to the extreme. In Otherworld, the survival of humanity itself\ndepends upon women persuading men to give up, not their unbridled\nmasculinity, but their very lives. This persuasion is what North is\nrebelling against: the male conspirators in the play North's group puts on\nhave apparently taken vows of celibacy. If North were to succeed, the\nresult would not be patriarchy but extinction; so it's not inconsistent of\nWolfe to prefer the Goddess over North.\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-01-20T17:03:23+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) DOORS: The Hero, The Otherworld, The Ending", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 1/16/03 8:41 AM, cilluff1 at optonline.net at cilluff1 at optonline.net wrote:\nThe Kafka reference is straightforward, you are certainly right there, but\nWolfe must have had something else in mind other than a thinly veiled (if\nveiled at all) reference to someone else's story. Without a doubt the\nnames are an homage, but I think it doesn't go far enough simply to detect\nreferences to others' works in Wolfe's stories, and simply because it is a\nreference to Kafka doesn't mean there is a reason within TAD's universe for\nwhy Klamm calls him Herr Kay, or that TAD's Klamm is little more than a\ntransplant to TAD's universe of Kafka's Klamm." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Klamm is a transplant to TAD's universe of Kafka's Klamm, although older.\nTAD's Klamm is \"a crag-faced old man with long, pointed mustaches dyed jet\nblack and cheeks pulled flaccidly downward by the weight of years.\" (96) In\nTHE CASTLE, Klamm's \"face was still smooth, but his cheeks were already\nsomewhat flabby with age. His black moustache had long points...\" (Chap. 3,\nMuir translation)\n\nWhile I don't understand the connection between TAD and THE CASTLE, I have\nno doubt that the explanation for Klamm's calling Green Herr Kay lies there.\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-01-20T17:03:26+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) DOORS: The Hero, The Otherworld, The Ending", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 1/17/03 11:03 AM, Andy Robertson at andywrobertson at clara.co.uk wrote:\nWhat I am trying to explain by the coinage \"Catholic Fabulation\" is that\nthere is a tradition of storytelling that runs along these lines.\n\nIt includes the Inklings' work (Williams too) but does NOT include such\nunambiguously religious works as, for example, A CANTICLE FOR LEIBOWIZT\n\nThe difference lies in the treatment of the supernatural.\n\nCF embraces the supernatural and **enables** it:\n\nIt occurs in the stories, but in drag, in disguise.\n\nThe keynote is that angels or demons or gods pop up and they pretend to be\naliens. God pops up, but he pretends to be The Increate or The Emperor Over\nThe Sea.\n\nI believe Wolfe is writing WITHIN that tradition." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I confess that I'm not quite clear on this. Wolfe's fiction is full of gods\nand goddesses explicitly identified as such. And in TBOTNS, God is no more\n\"pretending\" to be the Increate than Earth is pretending to be Urth: \"the\nIncreate\" is how the Commonwealth refers to God. As for cases like Tzadkiel\nand the Mother, here it's a matter of interpretation whether they're gods\nand angels pretending to be aliens, or aliens pretending to be gods and\naliens. I don't remember UotNS too well, but in the case of the Mother my\nmoney would be on the latter.\n\nLafferty, who you mentioned in an earlier post, seems to fit even less well,\nthough I haven't read him in a long time either. While many of his\ncharacters are extraordinary in various ways, I'd say that they are nearly\nall clearly human (even when they're aliens or ktestic machines). The only\ngods I can recall offhand in his works are Snuffles (from the story of the\nsame name) and Anteros (from \"Continued on Next Rock\").\n\nI don't know Lewis or Tolkien well enough to comment. But in general, is\nthere anything specifically \"Christian\" about the use of gods in fantasy?\nIt seems to me to be virtually ubiquitous, from Dunsany (where it's clearly\npagan in inspiration) to Gaiman's \"Sandman\" series to the run-off-the-mill\nersatz-Tolkien trilogy.\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2003-01-20T17:12:38+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) DOORS: The Hero, The Otherworld, The Ending", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Adam Stephanides\" \nTo: \n As for cases like Tzadkiel\nand the Mother, here it's a matter of interpretation whether they're gods\nand angels pretending to be aliens, or aliens pretending to be gods and\naliens." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The whole point of Catholic Fabulation is this.\n\n\n\"One thinks in one mood, for example, of fairies, elves and goblins - and in\nquite another of Mr Wells' Selenites or his Martians. But whenever one is\nforced to recognise a creature in either class as *real*, the distinction\nbecomes blurred. And in the case of the eldils, it vanishes altogether .\n..\"\n\n\nC S Lewis, quoted very inaccurately, from PERELANDRA" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-01-22T14:51:45+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) DOORS: The Hero, The Otherworld, The Ending", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 1/14/03 3:53 PM, Michael Andre-Driussi at mantis at siriusfiction.com wrote:\nlike insects, society is divided into the\nmass of sterile female workers and super-fertile queens (little doubt\nhere)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Could you elaborate? It's been a long time since I've read the novel, but I\ndon't recall any indications of this.\n\n--Adam" } ] } ] }