{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3776", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3776, "subject": "DOORS: Tina", "messages": 7, "voices": 5, "first": "2003-01-20T07:50:39+00:00", "last": "2003-01-24T15:17:38+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2003-01-20T07:50:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) DOORS: Tina", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I had the impression that dolls such as Tina were given primarily, if not\nexclusively, to boys. It also seemed to me that boys lost interest in them,\nor were made to give them up at some point, perhaps at puberty. At any rate,\nmost men in the Otherworld do not seem to have retained them as adults. The\nshopkeeper in the doll hospital implied that dolls sent there for repair\nwere not often picked up, and if they were, it was usually by the owner's\nmother. He said of Tina, \"The boy who owned her's been dead now for about\neight years. Malicapata.\" (10) Eight Otherworld years would be a lifetime\nago in our world. Such a life-like doll as Tina was beyond the technical\nability of our world fifteen years ago, yet in every other way the\nOtherworld seems decades behind ours in technology.\n\nI don't recall any reference to Christianity in the Otherworld, and what\nwould have been Christmas season was called Yule.\n\nHowever, when Green rediscovered Tina in our world, everything changed. Tina\nclaimed to have been \"born\" (i.e., first activated) on Christmas day. (251)\nShe mentions Christmas presents and a pretty tree. She also refers to Green\nas her \"god\" and compares him to \"a jealous god, like the one they talk\nabout\". That's an obvious Old Testament reference. So, both books of the\nBible are known in the Otherworld. Yet the Goddess is a living reality and\nthe society is matriarchal. I don't see how two such antithetical traditions\ncould co-exist.\n\nFurther, Tina claims to have been the doll of a \"goddess\", who also got a\nkitten for Christmas that year. That goddess was a girl old enough to walk\nto school by herself, but young enough to be still making paper crowns for\nherself and her doll. Then \"something bad\" happened, and the next thing Tina\nknew was Green activating her again with his tears. (252) Tina is a\nprogrammed, mechanical doll without the ability to lie, and not much memory.\nBut she can remember the \"goddess\" she first belonged to, and the day she\nwas \"born\". She could remember Green \"a little bit\" (272) after her power\nsource ran down, but she didn't know about the little boy who died eight\nOtherworld years before Green bought her, if he even existed.\n\nWho was the little girl to whom Tina first belonged, and why would a girl\nhave been given such a doll? For that matter, why give them to boys?\nAnatomically correct female dolls in the hands of boys is bound to stir\nsexual urges, especially as the boys mature. Orgasm seems to be fatal. How\nmany would die from having a wet dream?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-01-21T14:52:32+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) DOORS: Tina", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 1/20/03 1:50 AM, Roy C. Lackey at rclackey at stic.net wrote:\nHowever, when Green rediscovered Tina in our world, everything changed. Tina\nclaimed to have been \"born\" (i.e., first activated) on Christmas day. (251)\nShe mentions Christmas presents and a pretty tree. She also refers to Green\nas her \"god\" and compares him to \"a jealous god, like the one they talk\nabout\". That's an obvious Old Testament reference. So, both books of the\nBible are known in the Otherworld. Yet the Goddess is a living reality and\nthe society is matriarchal. I don't see how two such antithetical traditions\ncould co-exist." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Both these things may not represent traditions indigenous to Otherworld, but\nbits of our culture that have \"leaked\" across. Otherworld could have\nadopted Christmas as a purely secular, gift-giving holiday, as Japan has.\nSimilarly, they might know of Yahweh without believing in Him (though why\nTina should have been programmed with that bit of knowledge I don't know).\n\nBut in general, I doubt that Wolfe's set-up can be made to work\nconsistently. Roy's point about Tina is one example:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Such a life-like doll as Tina was beyond the technical\nability of our world fifteen years ago, yet in every other way the\nOtherworld seems decades behind ours in technology." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's beyond our abilities now; it's even beyond our abilities to build a\nrobot with a much larger \"brain\" than Tina's which can function like a human\nas well as Tina, if I'm not mistaken. And Wolfe's bit about how a\nwoman-dominated culture would worry more about children being lonely doesn't\nexplain anything. For one thing, a major impetus for the development of\ncomputing technology has been war, which there's supposedly less of in\nOtherworld. For another, while our government and universities may not put\nmuch effort into relieving children's loneliness, they have put a great deal\nof effort into artificial intelligence. How much would the Defense\nDepartment give for artificial soldiers which can function as well, and be\nproduced as inexpensively, as Tina?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Orgasm seems to be fatal. How\nmany would die from having a wet dream?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We seem compelled to conclude that males in Otherworld don't have wet\ndreams, regardless of the stimulus.\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2003-01-21T17:24:11+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) DOORS: Tina", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nSuch a life-like doll as Tina was beyond the technical\nability of our world fifteen years ago, yet in every other way the\nOtherworld seems decades behind ours in technology." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure. But since I've been tracing the copper/electric/technology thread of\nLara in TAD, it is perhaps too easy for me to say that Lara, the White\nGoddess, is also something of a goddess of technology. The artifact you\ncite as being a glaring exception to the otherwise lower-tech of Otherworld\nis, in fact, ta-da! a totem for worshipping Lara (like the ice-age Venus\nfigurines).\n\nAs for a previous owner being a girl, I've always had the suspicion that\nTina was Lara's doll, somehow, other than being modeled on Lara \"the\ngoddess at 16\" (which is another paradox to roll over). (I also have some\nwonderment on Tina and Sherry Gold and ghoulas and buried treasure, too.)\n\nI'm leaning more towards a time-tide between the worlds: this way there\nwould be periods of greatest difference and periods of catch-up in between.\nSo the O-time ratio would come down from 8.25 to 1 (time synchronization)\nand then into negative territory (the distortion would be reversed: 4 days\non Earth would become 33 days on Otherworld)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Adam Stephanides quoted Roy and wrote:\nOrgasm seems to be fatal. How\nmany would die from having a wet dream?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We seem compelled to conclude that males in Otherworld don't have wet\ndreams, regardless of the stimulus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To the contrary! We know that they can have such dreams and survive, since\nW.F. thinks that Green has had such a dream when Green claims to have seen\nLara at United. IIRC, W.F. tells Green not to worry, these things happen.\n\nThe \"death trigger\" is not ejaculation/orgasm, I suppose, but a biochemical\nagent released by the female when the zygotes have been successfully\nreceived in her holding tank. Then the male's body starts to self destruct.\n\nI thought it was implied that homosexuality was an option in addition to\ncelibacy, with the corollary that gays wouldn't die (of AIDS-like disease)\nlike the heterosexual males.\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2003-01-22T07:16:30+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) DOORS: Tina", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "mantis wrote:\nAs for a previous owner being a girl, I've always had the suspicion that\nTina was Lara's doll, somehow, other than being modeled on Lara \"the\ngoddess at 16\" (which is another paradox to roll over)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Paradox indeed. I don't see how Tina could ever have been Lara's doll. The\ntimetable for technological development aside, and ignoring effect preceding\ncause, the girl Tina belonged to was elementary school age. The Goddess\ndates back, at least, to Captain Billy. She seems not to age. Unless the\nGoddess is periodically reborn (for which there is no evidence in the text;\nwho was her daddy and did he die?), she could not possibly have been a child\nat a time when dolls like Tina existed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm leaning more towards a time-tide between the worlds: this way there\nwould be periods of greatest difference and periods of catch-up in between.\nSo the O-time ratio would come down from 8.25 to 1 (time synchronization)\nand then into negative territory (the distortion would be reversed: 4 days\non Earth would become 33 days on Otherworld)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The time difference was even greater for those four months Green was gone\nfrom the Otherworld; more like 14 to 1." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam Stephanides quoted Roy and wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Orgasm seems to be fatal. How\nmany would die from having a wet dream?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "We seem compelled to conclude that males in Otherworld don't have wet\ndreams, regardless of the stimulus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To the contrary! We know that they can have such dreams and survive, since\nW.F. thinks that Green has had such a dream when Green claims to have seen\nLara at United. IIRC, W.F. tells Green not to worry, these things happen." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not convinced that W.F. thought Green had had a wet dream." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The \"death trigger\" is not ejaculation/orgasm, I suppose, but a biochemical\nagent released by the female when the zygotes have been successfully\nreceived in her holding tank. Then the male's body starts to self\ndestruct." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I disagree. If the \"death trigger\" mechanism were something that simple,\nsome smart cookie would have made a fortune selling condoms and other\nbarrier methods of birth control. Males in the Otherworld must have an\ninnately weak libido for any such insectile biological reproductive system\nto work. And if that's the case, then they aren't men like us, and North's\nsexual revolution would never even have gotten off the ground.\n\nBTW, pursuant to your theory of names and initials, what does W.F. stand\nfor?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "StoneOx17", "address": "stoneox17 at aol.com" }, "date": "2003-01-22T15:05:48+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) DOORS: Tina", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "mantis wrote:\nAs for a previous owner being a girl, I've always had the suspicion that\nTina was Lara's doll, somehow, other than being modeled on Lara \"the\ngoddess at 16\" (which is another paradox to roll over)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If the goddess can change the color of her hair and eyes at will, why not\nher age as well? If the previous owner was the goddess, this might explain\nthe kitten. One of the attributes (is this the right word for goddesses, as \nopposed to saints?) of Cybele was a lion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm leaning more towards a time-tide between the worlds: this way there\nwould be periods of greatest difference and periods of catch-up in between.\nSo the O-time ratio would come down from 8.25 to 1 (time synchronization)\nand then into negative territory (the distortion would be reversed: 4 days\non Earth would become 33 days on Otherworld)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the 8.25 figure is wrong. It comes from Green's figuring of 33 days\nour world, 4 nights other world. But Green was only in the other world \n3 nights. His reckoning is: \"A night in the hospital, or perhaps two. Say\ntwo ...\" But the book only describes one night in the hospital, and this\nis confirmed by W.F. -- on the morning Green escapes, W.F. says that\nhe first saw Green the previous day, just before he went off shift. As I\nmentioned before, I think this corresponds to the 3 days that, according\nto some sources, Attis spent in the underworld before he was resurrected. \nThis gives an 11 to 1 ratio, but I still can't make it match the 56 months \nto 4 months of his second visit.\n\nThere's another datapoint on time flow we haven't considered. North can't \nhave been there more than 2 to 3 years Otherworld time, as he expects \nNixon to still be president, and is confused about this until Green tells \nhim Nixon resigned. He's been there at least 1.5 years, from the police \nfiles. And to me I calculate that the time in our world has to have been\nbetween 11 and 20 years, using generous margins.\n\n--Stone Ox" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-01-24T15:08:14+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) DOORS: Tina", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 1/21/03 11:24 AM, Michael Andre-Driussi at mantis at siriusfiction.com\nwrote:\nSure. But since I've been tracing the copper/electric/technology thread of\nLara in TAD, it is perhaps too easy for me to say that Lara, the White\nGoddess, is also something of a goddess of technology. The artifact you\ncite as being a glaring exception to the otherwise lower-tech of Otherworld\nis, in fact, ta-da! a totem for worshipping Lara (like the ice-age Venus\nfigurines)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On rereading the relevant passages, I'm inclined to agree with Roy that the\ndolls are more like toys for children. If Tina was meant to be worshipped,\nwhy would she call her owners gods and goddesses? And while Tina's\ncapacities are incredible for a doll, compared to a human she's pretty\nstupid. I don't see how giving Tina a brain of that caliber would make her\nmore worship-worthy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "We seem compelled to conclude that males in Otherworld don't have wet\ndreams, regardless of the stimulus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To the contrary! We know that they can have such dreams and survive, since\nW.F. thinks that Green has had such a dream when Green claims to have seen\nLara at United. IIRC, W.F. tells Green not to worry, these things happen." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It seems to me that when W.F. tells Green \"Lots of dudes have some dreams\nlike that,\" (63, hc) he means visions of goddesses, not wet dreams: he\nspeaks after Green has shown him Lara's photo attached to the roses. And\nwhy would W.F., when Green has told him merely that he saw a blond woman\nstepping into the hallway, conclude that Green had had a wet dream?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The \"death trigger\" is not ejaculation/orgasm, I suppose, but a biochemical\nagent released by the female when the zygotes have been successfully\nreceived in her holding tank. Then the male's body starts to self destruct." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In addition to Roy's objection to this, artificial insemination would seem\nto be an easy way for males to evade their \"doom.\" (Of course, it's\npossible that some sort of biological mechanism makes it impossible for the\nsperm to be stored without natural intercourse, but I don't recall any\nevidence of this.)\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2003-01-24T15:17:38+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) DOORS: Tina", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I took it that ALL the dolls were images of the goddess, and that \nthey were designed for children as a way of learning to interact with the \ngoddess. That is, as idols of the goddess, training them in her religion.\n Living idols, in a way. Idols in the Bible are attacked as \"dumb,\" \nbut \"I'm Tina! I'm YOUR doll, AND I CAN TALK!\"\n I'll modify my first paragraph: The dolls are especially for boys, \nso that they fall in love with their dolls, and later with the goddess that \nthey image.\n\nNutria" } ] } ] }