{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3793", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3793, "subject": "George MacDonald", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "2003-01-22T12:35:34+00:00", "last": "2003-01-22T13:19:28+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nigel Price", "address": "nigel.a.price at virgin.net" }, "date": "2003-01-22T12:35:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) George MacDonald", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Tami Whitehead wrote:\n((Honestly, I read Doors, and just sat and scratched\nmy head for a day or so. It reminded me a bit of\nLilith, by ol' what's his name, friend and\ncontemporary of C S Lewis etc...rats, what's his name,\nbut you know the one, Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe\nfor adults, with a tad un-orthodox Christian\nsymbolism...))" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suppose, strictly speaking, George Macdonald (1824-1905) and C S Lewis\n(1898-1963) overlapped by about seven years, but you wouldn't normally call\nthem \"contemporaries\".\n\nYears ago, I did a dissertation on Macdonald and read all his fantasy novels\nand stories and a chunk of his literary criticism and mainstream Victorian\nfiction too. To quote one of my children's favourite phrases, \"it did my\nhead in.\" Some of his stories were good - I liked \"The Golden Key\" for\nexample - but most of his work is verbose, poorly structured and mawkishly\nsentimental. Some of it is also, frankly, perverse. I never did really\nunderstand what Lewis saw in him.\n\nSo imagine my horror when I read the following in Nutria's interview with\nWolfe (\"That's his name Jim, but not spelt as we know it!\"):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "JJ: Now you are reading George McDonald?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "GW: Yes, Lilith. I had not read anything\nexcept Curdie and the Goblin and At the\nBack of the North Wind and those types,\nand they are quite good but they are\nbasically fairy stories. I had read others\nthat were about that good, but I don't think\nthey had any great theological impact, any\ngreat feeling from that standpoint." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree entirely with Wolfe's verdict on the main body of Macdonald's work,\nbut, frustratingly, he doesn't say what he thought of \"Lilith\". Now that you\nmention it, though, I can see some points of overlap for Wolfe. Other\nworlds, ambiguous goddess/queens...and Lilith, if I recall, has some\ninhuma-like characteristics...She turns into a blood sucking white slug or\nworm at night. As in the famous C L Moore story \"Shambleau\", however,\nMacDonald is deliberately vague...Oh dear, how do I put this?...about what\nit is exactly that Lilith sucks...\n\nI do apologise for that.\n\nLove Wolfe, don't like most MacDonald.\n\nNigel" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2003-01-22T13:19:28+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) George MacDonald", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He he he . . .\n\nI love MacDonald,\n\nBut I agree, he's DEFINITELY kinky.\n\n\n\nBut it's the Goddess, you see. Mother R*d**bt. :)\n\n\nShe demands the status of divinity.\n\nAnd if you won't worship her, she turns into a soul/semen-sucking Lilith -\nor an evil Mother in the sea.\n\n\n\nActually Macdonald's most joyful and peaceful Fairy-Stories are the CURDIE\nbooks, which contain a wonderful image of the Lady. He was from time to\ntime able to recognise her divinity without guilt or fear. Wolfe has never\nquite managed it.\n\n Andy R\n\n\n----- Original Message -----\nFrom: \"Nigel Price\" \nT" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Years ago, I did a dissertation on Macdonald and read all his fantasy\nnovels\nand stories and a chunk of his literary criticism and mainstream Victorian\nfiction too. To quote one of my children's favourite phrases, \"it did my\nhead in.\" Some of his stories were good - I liked \"The Golden Key\" for\nexample - but most of his work is verbose, poorly structured and mawkishly\nsentimental. Some of it is also, frankly, perverse. I never did really\nunderstand what Lewis saw in him.\n\nSo imagine my horror when I read the following in Nutria's interview with\nWolfe (\"That's his name Jim, but not spelt as we know it!\"):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "JJ: Now you are reading George McDonald?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "GW: Yes, Lilith. I had not read anything\nexcept Curdie and the Goblin and At the\nBack of the North Wind and those types,\nand they are quite good but they are\nbasically fairy stories. I had read others\nthat were about that good, but I don't think\nthey had any great theological impact, any\ngreat feeling from that standpoint." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree entirely with Wolfe's verdict on the main body of Macdonald's\nwork,\nbut, frustratingly, he doesn't say what he thought of \"Lilith\". Now that\nyou\nmention it, though, I can see some points of overlap for Wolfe. Other\nworlds, ambiguous goddess/queens...and Lilith, if I recall, has some\ninhuma-like characteristics...She turns into a blood sucking white slug or\nworm at night. As in the famous C L Moore story \"Shambleau\", however,\nMacDonald is deliberately vague...Oh dear, how do I put this?...about what\nit is exactly that Lilith sucks..." } ] } ] }