{
  "export": {
    "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3800",
    "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it.  Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.",
    "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'"
  },
  "archive": "urth",
  "thread": {
    "id": 3800,
    "subject": "Andrew and Marc and Silk and Horn and Babbie",
    "messages": 2,
    "voices": 2,
    "first": "2003-01-23T16:38:55+00:00",
    "last": "2003-01-23T23:46:44+00:00"
  },
  "messages": [
    {
      "message_id": "<urth-v0301-2783@digest.urth.net>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes",
        "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com"
      },
      "date": "2003-01-23T16:38:55+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) Andrew and Marc and Silk and Horn and Babbie",
      "in_reply_to": null,
      "reply_link": null,
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "The one thing we all seem to agree upon is that the weird scene\nat the end of OBW is a major turning point, and key to any full\ninterpretation of _SS_.\n\nI've never been quite able to buy Marc's Horn-into-Babbie \nreading of this scene for practical reasons -- in fact, \nthe classic Lupine problem of authorship -- who _writes_ \nthis scene? If we accept Marc's reading, by the time of \nnarration, Horn is \"gone\" from the Narrator's body. But \nit's written from the point of view of the person who \nprimarily experiences ... whatever it is. Silk can not know \nwhat Horn's departure feels like from Horn's point of view; \nyet in this reading, that is exactly what is being narrated.\n\nAndrew's reading has some merit. I'm particularly whacking\nmyself on the head over his reading of Evensong -- this \nis so true to the basic Silk pattern; with Evensong, the\nNarrator is (in a sense) going through the whole Hyacinth\nexperience all over again, in a kind of mirror-image. \n\nI'm not going to dispute Andrew's reading at this point; \nI think it warrants some time. It certainly answers some\nquestions, but it raises others ... in particular, I have\ntrouble seeing how the Babbie _persona_ could be extricated\nback out from the Silk/Horn/? melange and put back into \nBabbie. (But then, perhaps he carries some Hornishness \nwith him ... which would explain the astrally travelling \nBabbie scene which Marc has indicated.) \n\nPossible areas for investigation to support or deny\nthis reading:\n\no Is the Narrator's attitude toward Babbie significantly\n  different when Babbie returns in RttW from what it was\n  in OBW? If so, how?\no Can we disentangle the \"I\" references in the scene at\n  the end of OBW in a way that makes some kind of artistic\n  sense? Is there a pattern to who is speaking when?\no Why would the Babbie persona be necessary to save the \n  Narrator at that point? By which I mean, why Babbie\n  specifically? And what happened to Babbie while this\n  was going on?\no Does this help to explain how Babbie got back to the \n  Main continent of Blue?"
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<urth-v0301-2789@digest.urth.net>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Andrew Bollen",
        "address": "abollen at internode.on.net"
      },
      "date": "2003-01-23T23:46:44+00:00",
      "subject": "Re: (urth) Andrew and Marc and Silk and Horn and Babbie",
      "in_reply_to": "<urth-v0301-2783@digest.urth.net>",
      "reply_link": "subject",
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Blattid wrote:\nI have trouble seeing how the Babbie _persona_ could be extricated\nback out from the Silk/Horn/? melange and put back into\nBabbie."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Need this be very different than Mucor's possessions, Mora/Fava's? Perhaps\nthe agency is actually Mucor (although I don't know of any instance where we\nare told she cause a \"3rd party possession\".)"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Why would the Babbie persona be necessary to save the\nNarrator at that point? By which I mean, why Babbie\n specifically?"
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Well, if the agency was in fact Mucor, this makes sense. More generally,\nBabbie is strong (SilkHorn is exhausted), brave (Silk is falling into his\nSilkish pit of despair), and devoted to Horn."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "And what happened to Babbie while this\n was going on?"
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Perhaps he's sleeping? (I know, Babbie is nocturnal.)"
        }
      ]
    }
  ]
}