{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3802", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3802, "subject": "DOORS: The hive-like society", "messages": 7, "voices": 3, "first": "2003-01-23T17:00:15+00:00", "last": "2003-01-30T21:59:36+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2003-01-23T17:00:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) DOORS: The hive-like society", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Adam Stephanides quoted me and wrote:\nlike insects, society is divided into the\nmass of sterile female workers and super-fertile queens (little doubt\nhere)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Could you elaborate? It's been a long time since I've read the novel, but I\ndon't recall any indications of this." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "First I'd like to give my sense of the dolls, as I've been meaning to do" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "since Roy Lackey wrote:\nI had the impression that dolls such as Tina were given primarily, if not\nexclusively, to boys. It also seemed to me that boys lost interest in them,\nor were made to give them up at some point, perhaps at puberty. At any rate,\nmost men in the Otherworld do not seem to have retained them as adults. The\nshopkeeper in the doll hospital implied that dolls sent there for repair\nwere not often picked up, and if they were, it was usually by the owner's\nmother." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Previously I pointed out that women are pretty much against men having\ndolls: they will destroy them (the dolls first). Now I will explain more\nabout why I think this is.\n\nMy theory: The women tolerate, even encourage dolls/goddess worship for\nboys. A doll gives a boy a focus, erotic and spiritual (especially in\npreparation for his personal self-sacrifice that others might live). The\ndoll does a lot of the work in preping the boy for his role as a man,\nfilling in during free time when the boy is away from formal education.\nOtherworld marriage is an institution whereby a man pledges his zygotes to\na woman in exchange for her mercy and forbearance: it is for the man to\navoid sudden random death (be it like the probably unlawful rape at the\nhospital or the socially-sanctioned lure of an ice-queen on a parade\nfloat), and for the woman to avoid being a maenad/lamia/stalker of\nunmarried men.\n\nThis then is the social contract. The man gives up the doll when he\nmarries: his wife becomes his \"goddess,\" the one that the doll was\npreparing him for. The husband lives until the zygote transfer (witness\nthe situation with boxer Joe Joseph and his wife Jennifer: according to the\npre-nuptial she will wait until she is 35, but some think she is pressuring\nhim for an earlier transfer). The wife would have no interest in the man's\ndoll, but the man's mother of course would, since she had raised the boy\nlike a prize pig -- she would remember the boy and his doll.\n\nWith this in mind, a man with a doll is something rather shocking. It\nimplies arrested development at the very least, if not some weird cult\nand/or socially deviant behavior.\n\nDIVISIONS OF SOCIETY\n\n\"AND IN THE CAPITAL, THE PRESIDENT HAS--AS SHE THREATENED EARLIER--VETOED\nTHE FAMILY MAINTENANCE--[volume turned down] bill that would have permitted\ninvoluntary sterilization of mothers of twenty-five or more children\" (28).\n\nNow this could be a simple \"Planet of the Apes\"-style gag (words of the\nsermon: \"He said he never met an ape he did not like\"). But I take it as\nbeing more thought out than that.\n\nIn the government (of the women, by the women, for the women) there has\nbeen a movement to restrict the number of children a mother can have. To\nme this suggests that 1) mothers have power; 2) the mother's power is\nproportional to the size of her brood; 3) pre-mothers want to reduce the\npower of mothers (at the cost of more male lives lost to fertilize more\nlow-output mothers); 4) the mothers are blocking the attempt at reducing\ntheir power/upping the male death quota.\n\n(I assume that the 25 children limit represents a number that is both\nreproductively sound [i.e., does not represent negative population growth]\nand supportive of a \"democracy of mothers\" that the bill's framers\npresumably want.)\n\nWhen I wrote,\"like insects, [Otherworld] society is divided into the\nmass of sterile female workers and super-fertile queens,\" I did not mean to\nimply that the pre-mothers were actually incapable of giving birth (as\nneuter female insects are), nor did I mean to imply that the mothers were\nliterally queens (it seems like a representative democracy of some kind).\nIn a hive-like society where every (female) \"worker\" (pre-mother) can\nbecome a \"queen\" (mother) there will be the sort of tensions I see in the\nOtherworld society.\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-01-25T14:20:02+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) DOORS: The hive-like society", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 1/23/03 11:00 AM, Michael Andre-Driussi at mantis at siriusfiction.com\nwrote:\nOtherworld marriage is an institution whereby a man pledges his zygotes to\na woman in exchange for her mercy and forbearance: it is for the man to\navoid sudden random death (be it like the probably unlawful rape at the\nhospital or the socially-sanctioned lure of an ice-queen on a parade\nfloat), and for the woman to avoid being a maenad/lamia/stalker of\nunmarried men." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI may be forgetting something again, but I don't remember getting the\nimpression that unmarried men were in grave danger, Al Bailey's fate\nnotwithstanding. In any case, marrying for the reason you suggest is\ntrading possible death for certain death, which seems to me like a bad\nbargain." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This then is the social contract. The man gives up the doll when he\nmarries: his wife becomes his \"goddess,\" the one that the doll was\npreparing him for." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I haven't yet reread TAD, but I was looking through it, and I came across a\ncouple of things which cause problems for your scenario. The woman at the\nhaberdashery tells Green that her father had still owned a doll after he was\nmarried. (125) A bodyguard sees Tina and tells Green \"You got one of those?\nI used to have one myself.\" (303) This seems to me an unlikely remark if\nmost boys own dolls: sort of like saying \"You went to school as a kid? So\ndid I.\" Then there's the doll hospital. Your theory would imply that most\nof the people who leave their dolls there to be repaired get married soon\nafterwards (since you say men keep their dolls until marriage). And the\nshopkeeper refers to the typical client as a \"boy,\" not a man (9).\n\nI admit, though, that I don't understand the doll hospital. Why do so many\npeople bring their dolls in to be repaired, paying a \"pretty big deposit,\"\nand then fail to pick them up, even though they'd get their deposit back and\nnot have to pay anything. If I were one of the owners' mothers, I'd\nremember the deposit, if nothing else." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"AND IN THE CAPITAL, THE PRESIDENT HAS--AS SHE THREATENED EARLIER--VETOED\nTHE FAMILY MAINTENANCE--[volume turned down] bill that would have permitted\ninvoluntary sterilization of mothers of twenty-five or more children\" (28).\n\nNow this could be a simple \"Planet of the Apes\"-style gag (words of the\nsermon: \"He said he never met an ape he did not like\"). But I take it as\nbeing more thought out than that.\n\nIn the government (of the women, by the women, for the women) there has\nbeen a movement to restrict the number of children a mother can have. To\nme this suggests that 1) mothers have power; 2) the mother's power is\nproportional to the size of her brood; 3) pre-mothers want to reduce the\npower of mothers (at the cost of more male lives lost to fertilize more\nlow-output mothers); 4) the mothers are blocking the attempt at reducing\ntheir power/upping the male death quota." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd forgotten that quote. But while it proves the existence of\n\"super-mothers,\" it seems to tell more against than in favor of your theory\nas a whole. Powerful groups are rarely targeted for involuntary\nsterilization; note also that the bill has been vetoed, meaning that it had\npassed Congress. It's more likely that the motive for the bill is similar\nto that of extreme right-wing proposals in this world to sterilize \"welfare\nmothers\": that children in such large families are likely to be badly reared\nand/or drains on the public purse.\n\nAnd I don't think the bill, if passed, would have increased the number of\nmale deaths. It's true that, to keep the rate of population growth fixed,\nmore men would have to become fathers. But I don't recall any indication\nthat the society is aiming for such a fixed target; and men aren't coerced\nto become fathers, though there is presumably social pressure to do so.\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2003-01-26T16:25:25+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) DOORS: The hive-like society", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam Stephanides wrote:\nI may be forgetting something again, but I don't remember getting the\nimpression that unmarried men were in grave danger, Al Bailey's fate\nnotwithstanding. In any case, marrying for the reason you suggest is\ntrading possible death for certain death, which seems to me like a bad\nbargain." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Whoops, we've lost track of the point that the men are marrying for love,\nthe women are marrying for socially sanctioned reproduction. (Then again,\nmaybe I'm wrong on that supposition.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This then is the social contract. The man gives up the doll when he\nmarries: his wife becomes his \"goddess,\" the one that the doll was\npreparing him for." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I haven't yet reread TAD, but I was looking through it, and I came across a\ncouple of things which cause problems for your scenario. The woman at the\nhaberdashery tells Green that her father had still owned a doll after he was\nmarried. (125) A bodyguard sees Tina and tells Green \"You got one of those?\nI used to have one myself.\" (303) This seems to me an unlikely remark if\nmost boys own dolls: sort of like saying \"You went to school as a kid? So\ndid I.\" Then there's the doll hospital. Your theory would imply that most\nof the people who leave their dolls there to be repaired get married soon\nafterwards (since you say men keep their dolls until marriage). And the\nshopkeeper refers to the typical client as a \"boy,\" not a man (9)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Strange (or maybe \"predictably\"?), I see those quotes you give in a\ndifferent light entirely. Let's re-imagine the doll as an infant pacifier\nto heighten the effect. The haberdashery woman makes (or makes up) her\nembarrassing admission in order to paper over her customer's socially\nstrange behavior -- she is trying to say there is nothing embarrassing\nabout it, but to me her actions speak louder than her words. The\nbodyguard's line is more pointed, and less to me the \"You went to school .\n. . ?\" you see it as than a \"Yea, I had a binky once . . . as a baby.\" As\nfor the shop keeper, I don't think I take the term \"boy\" as literally as\nyou seem to: while I don't take it in the sense of a derogatory term for an\noppressed class (i.e., \"boy\" used by whites for adult black males), I tend\ntoward seeing it an affected form of shop talk.\n\nThen again, if we could translate \"malicapata\" as \"he performed his own\nunmanning and died as a result,\" and we could establish that this was a\ntypical consequence of goddess worship (seems easy enough), and such\nselfish suicide was widespread in Otherworld, many pieces would fall\ntogether. But that is a new topic for a different post.\n\nI do not insist that all dolls belonged to pre-bridegrooms, nor that only\nmen give them up. I am trying to solve the puzzle of why we are told more\nthan once that Otherworld women become destructively violent at the sight\nof a man with his doll.\n\nWhich brings us to the question of how could species-perpetuating\nreproduction happen if it is literally suicide for the male? (Granted that\nspiders and bees and ants and all sorts of others do it this way.) It\nseems to me that some men would mate/die for Love (Eros) along the goddess\nworshiping lines, and others might mate/die for suicide (Thanatos) . . . so\nwhat is the suicide rate among men? What if this number were channeled\ninto fertilization programs, where each one donated enough zygotes for a\nwoman to have many more than 25 offspring? (How many more, anyway? Total\n50?) Could this suicidal minority support the species? Seems possible.\n\nSo what do all the men do? The married ones do not seem to be secluded in\nharems or anything: Joe is a boxer. (To spell it out: Jennifer is afraid\nhe will die in the ring rather than in her arms.) In the parade we seem to\nsee men as soldiers, men as politicians giving each other flowers and\ncigars, so they can fulfill these roles, too, and the text is silent over\nwhether or not marriage is required.\n\n(Back to the street parade: My supposition is that a married man would not\nbe allowed to watch that parade, somehow; and/or if a married man was\ntargeted by the ice queen, she would see his wedding band and ignore him,\ni.e., de-target him, and probably signal the police to pull him out of the\nparade for public drunkenness. But this is just supposition.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "About the \"Family Maintenance\" bill in Otherworld Congress, Adam wrote:\nI'd forgotten that quote. But while it proves the existence of\n\"super-mothers,\" it seems to tell more against than in favor of your theory\nas a whole. Powerful groups are rarely targeted for involuntary\nsterilization; note also that the bill has been vetoed, meaning that it had\npassed Congress. It's more likely that the motive for the bill is similar\nto that of extreme right-wing proposals in this world to sterilize \"welfare\nmothers\": that children in such large families are likely to be badly reared\nand/or drains on the public purse." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Really? I thought that Microsoft/Bill Gates was targeted for\n\"sterilization\" precisely because of power. (Since I'm stressing the\nsociopolitical power of motherhood in Otherworld I think it is misleading\nto think of \"eugenics\" programs against non-elites in our world.)\n\n(Hmmm. I saw \"family maintenance\" as translating to \"making families\navailable to more women\"; a broadening of the franchise. You posit \"family\nmaintenance\" as meaning \"maintain or restore the strength of the family by\nlimiting its size,\" if I understand it correctly. And supposing that\npolitical talk translates at all!)\n\nBut I see no evidence of a welfare system at all in TAD. I do not see\nmotherhood in Otherworld as stigmatized in any way -- to the contrary, it\nseems to be something so alluring that women (not all, mind you) are\nwilling to commit murder. So while I can see your eugenics reading, I\ncannot see the social situation it seems to rely upon; otoh, the eugenics\nreading does not address the drive of Otherworld women to become mothers\nwhen it is not entirely a biological necessity.\n\nI'm happy you can see the \"super-mothers,\" although I'd rather you see them\nas just the mothers that I think they are. I sense that you still cannot\nsee the rather desperate pre-mothers: Gloria Brooks (maybe), the ice queen\n(definitely), and even Fanny. I don't think we actually meet any\nOtherworld mothers in the text, but we certainly meet two pre-mothers.\nThere is also wife Jennifer, of course, and her tempered but present drive.\n\nIf you want the line about the bill to be just a \"Planet of the Apes\" gag\nto get across the alien side of Otherworld, (women with zygote holding\ntanks; mothers who routinely birth more than 25 children) I can see that\nwithout argument." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And I don't think the bill, if passed, would have increased the number of\nmale deaths. It's true that, to keep the rate of population growth fixed,\nmore men would have to become fathers. But I don't recall any indication\nthat the society is aiming for such a fixed target; and men aren't coerced\nto become fathers, though there is presumably social pressure to do so." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Social pressure\" like the ice-queen float in the parade? \"Coercion\" like\nthat implied when the ice queen says, \"I'm not one of those people who put\na gun to your head . . . If you should change your mind\"? Or the naked\ncoercion when she goes after him with a knife? (23) Is the following\npassage indicative of social pressure or coercion?: [Dr. Pille talking\nabout the ice queen incident and why Green was diagnosed as an \"alcoholic\"\nwhich the hospital workers call \"sex change\"] \"Breach of promise is quite\nserious, as you must know. If I had said you were sound except for your\nconcussion, you'd have been taken to another hospital, and eventually to\nprison. By classifying you as an alcoholic, I was able to keep you at\nUnited and keep you off of psychoactive drugs\" (101).\n\n(The dark humor: by rights, Green should have been sent to the hospital\nprison for his [ignorant] behavior, yet North, with his violent rap sheet\nand ties to secret societies, has still been assigned to the simple\nhospital. Shows the social weighting of their crimes, I supppose.)\n\nBut I think we can agree that TAD is not at its core about population\ngrowth, be it \"Malthusian nightmare\" ala Harrison's MAKE ROOM, MAKE ROOM\n(where sterilization becomes a tool to tame overpopulation), or its\nopposite, the infertility crisis die-off.\n\nSince Adam Stephanides and Roy Lackey have both rejected my sense that\nthere are non-virginal gays in Otherworld, it may well be that they are\nright. (I thought that there was something other than tears that would\nactivate a sexually arousing doll.) Maybe I read too much Delany as a\nteenager, but the gay substratum seemed to me to be more than Green\navoiding a (what I suppose to be gay) proposition on Earth (207), and Green\nsaying \"I'm not gay\" to the antique-collecting woman (233). (I could have\nsworn Green said it another time earlier on in Otherworld, but I can't find\nit now.) And more than just TAD being a novel written in the 1980s where\nsex = death for men.\n\nBut still, to make my point clear even as I recognize that it may not be\nsupported by the text: I thought that Sheng was offering a garden of\nEarthly Delights in his \"paradise\" underground (with all those mattresses),\nthat it was \"Sheng's Grotto\" with more than tea, opium, and playing cards\nbeing offered (note the \"male root\" given -- so Green can get \"males\"?).\nSheng as a panderer to sensual pleasures not offered by above ground\nsociety. \"Welcome to the Underground,\" as it were.\n\nIn addition to that, I find something very shady about North witnessing Al\nBailey's \"doing\" by Gloria Brooks . . . that he would be so passive when\nhis friend/recruit is being killed seems odd.\n\n(More about Bailey: since the post-coitus/post-ejaculation death is more\nlike dying by AIDS, then how come Bailey is an instant KIA? Well maybe\nsome guys do shuffle off in the big O . . . or maybe she just gave him the\nmercy killing with a pillow, a murder the victim would not resist, knowing\nthat it was merciful. Explains that whole \"gun to the head\" thing: like\nTheresa Russell's line in, iirc, \"The Black Widow\" -- \"Are you going to\ndie, or are you going to die happy?\")\n\nSo then I started wondering if North wasn't perhaps gay. He might have\nbeen going to have a tryst with Al (lethal or otherwise), with \"bum a\ncigarette\" as the cover story for others. North might have killed Bailey\n(he certainly seems homicidal enough with Green, even in nonsexual\nsituations) and then blamed it on Gloria: after all, North is the witness\nand we know how crazy he is.\n\nA lot of North's behavior strikes me as being homo erotic, but then again\nmuch alpha male behavior strikes me the same way (again, too much Delany?\nToo much William Burroughs.).\n\n(To guard against reading homo eroticism where none is present, I was just\nnow trying to remember that quote where Paul Newman is drunkenly saying to\nva-va-voom wife Elizabeth Taylor something like \"Is it wrong for two guys\nto like each other, is that a crime?\" But whoops! That's Tennessee\nWilliams. I'm doomed.)\n\nEjaculation as the death-trigger, I can see that easily enough. And yet,\nwow, what a Catholic Christian utopia nightmare! No\nfornication, no auto eroticism, sexual congress is performed one time for\nreproductive purposes.\n\n(Oh yeah, another reason why Otherworld women might resent the goddess: she\nis not a goddess of motherhood, she is a goddess of love -- her whole deal\nis multiple lovers, a trait which would not fit well in Otherworld society.)\n\nEnough wheel-spinning on this retread. Onward to Attis!\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Veyera", "address": "teflon93 at cox.net" }, "date": "2003-01-26T17:51:23+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) DOORS: The hive-like society", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mantis-\n\nI read TAD a little differently.\n\nI ascribe women's hatred of the dolls to hatred of competition. In\nOtherworld, competition is literally killer. In our world, a woman\ntypically competes against other women for the affections of one man. In\nOtherworld, where copulation equals death for the male, she must not only\ncompete with the other unattached women, but ALL women who wish to have a\nchild. On top of this, men, fearing death, have taken to Goddess worship\nand the safe companionship of dolls to fill the void typically filled by\nwomen. Is it any wonder they'd be so angry at the very sight of a doll?\n\nI also wonder whether it is ejaculation or intercourse with a woman which\nbrings on death. I suspect the latter, or one nocturnal emission would be\nthe end of civilization.\n\nThis would also lend more strength to my argument above, and to your notion\nthat North might be homosexual. It would certainly follow in any society\nwhere heterosexual sex meant death that a large number might prefer the\nalternative." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2003-01-26T18:49:51+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) DOORS: The hive-like society", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Veyera wrote:\nI ascribe women's hatred of the dolls to hatred of competition. In\nOtherworld, competition is literally killer. In our world, a woman\ntypically competes against other women for the affections of one man. In\nOtherworld, where copulation equals death for the male, she must not only\ncompete with the other unattached women, but ALL women who wish to have a\nchild. On top of this, men, fearing death, have taken to Goddess worship\nand the safe companionship of dolls to fill the void typically filled by\nwomen. Is it any wonder they'd be so angry at the very sight of a doll?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can go along with that, but I'd add that there must be plenty of\nOtherworld women who do not want children, either because they do not want\nto commit murder or simply because they do not want the hassle of\nparenting. That is to say, I think that TAD shows a world where\nreproduction involves pre-fathers following Love/Death and pre-mothers\nfollowing Power, and the other men and women being pretty much the mass of\nnon-reproductive society, getting on with their lives." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I also wonder whether it is ejaculation or intercourse with a woman which\nbrings on death. I suspect the latter, or one nocturnal emission would be\nthe end of civilization." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, well we are in agreement on that one: two against the world! But their\nargument, iirc, is that Otherworld males are as biologically different from\nEarth males as O-females are from E-females -- so O-males are chaste and\npure (until a pre-mother does something which activates them) where E-males\nare not . . . which leads Roy Lackey to suggest, iirc, that the masculinist\nrevolution in Otherworld could scarcely form." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This would also lend more strength to my argument above, and to your notion\nthat North might be homosexual. It would certainly follow in any society\nwhere heterosexual sex meant death that a large number might prefer the\nalternative." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right, but in theory the Otherworld gays could be \"Platonic\" lovers (where\nPlatonic is in its Victorian sense of being completely non-physical, as\nopposed to the, ahem, satyricon of Plato's Retreat or the gay understanding\nof the party in Plato's SYMPOSIUM). So they could be virgin gays.\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-01-30T14:40:16+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) DOORS: The hive-like society", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 1/26/03 10:25 AM, Michael Andre-Driussi at mantis at siriusfiction.com\nwrote:\nI do not insist that all dolls belonged to pre-bridegrooms, nor that only\nmen give them up. I am trying to solve the puzzle of why we are told more\nthan once that Otherworld women become destructively violent at the sight\nof a man with his doll." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, I think I basically agree with you on that point. A man who holds\nonto his doll is choosing an ideal woman over a real woman, and hence\ndepriving a real woman of a chance for motherhood." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Which brings us to the question of how could species-perpetuating\nreproduction happen if it is literally suicide for the male? (Granted that\nspiders and bees and ants and all sorts of others do it this way.) It\nseems to me that some men would mate/die for Love (Eros) along the goddess\nworshiping lines, and others might mate/die for suicide (Thanatos) . . . so\nwhat is the suicide rate among men? What if this number were channeled\ninto fertilization programs, where each one donated enough zygotes for a\nwoman to have many more than 25 offspring? (How many more, anyway? Total\n50?) Could this suicidal minority support the species? Seems possible." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, the math is easy to do. Assume, to be liberal, that the average\nmother has fifty children (since the average lifespan of human women is no\nhigher than in our world, it could scarcely be higher). Assume also that\nthe sex ratio of babies is fifty-fifty, since there's no indication of\nanything else. Then each father produces an average of twenty-five males to\nreplace himself, which means that for the population to reproduce itself the\nsuicide ratio among men has to be at least 4%. That seems awfully high to\nme." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "About the \"Family Maintenance\" bill in Otherworld Congress, Adam wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'd forgotten that quote. But while it proves the existence of\n\"super-mothers,\" it seems to tell more against than in favor of your theory\nas a whole. Powerful groups are rarely targeted for involuntary\nsterilization; note also that the bill has been vetoed, meaning that it had\npassed Congress. It's more likely that the motive for the bill is similar\nto that of extreme right-wing proposals in this world to sterilize \"welfare\nmothers\": that children in such large families are likely to be badly reared\nand/or drains on the public purse." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Really? I thought that Microsoft/Bill Gates was targeted for\n\"sterilization\" precisely because of power. (Since I'm stressing the\nsociopolitical power of motherhood in Otherworld I think it is misleading\nto think of \"eugenics\" programs against non-elites in our world.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again, I may be forgetting something, but I don't recall any evidence in the\nbook of the mothers' sociopolitical power. And while I know what you mean,\n\"eugenics\" isn't really the right word for what I'm getting at (after\ntwenty-five children, it's a little late for eugenics)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(Hmmm. I saw \"family maintenance\" as translating to \"making families\navailable to more women\"; a broadening of the franchise. You posit \"family\nmaintenance\" as meaning \"maintain or restore the strength of the family by\nlimiting its size,\" if I understand it correctly. And supposing that\npolitical talk translates at all!)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, I hadn't been thinking of the bill's title at all. But now that\nyou mention it, I think that the reading you attribute to me fits better\nthan the one you prefer. Of course, bills here frequently have anodyne\ntitles which don't reflect their contents, let alone the motives behind them\n(USA Patriot Act, anyone?); presumably it's the same in Otherworld." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But I see no evidence of a welfare system at all in TAD." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While it may not be mentioned explicitly, I think it's safe to say that one\nexists. Firstly, in matters not gender- or reproduction-related, Otherworld\nsociety seems similar to America in the late 1940s or early 1950s. We had a\nwelfare system then, though much less extensive than the Great Society, so\nit's reasonable to suppose that Otherworld does. Secondly, Green thinks at\none point that a society dominated by women would care more about children\nthan ours does. Though realistically there's no reason why Green should be\nin a position to know (he seems to observe very little that's not related to\nhis quest for Lara), I get the feeling we're supposed to regard his\nruminations on Otherworld as reliable. So if postwar America and Otherworld\ndiffer in this regard, I'd expect the difference to be in Otherworld's\nfavor. Third, and most importantly, the practical aspect: a woman living on\nher own, raising twenty-five children, could not possibly support herself\nunaided (unless she were rich)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I do not see\nmotherhood in Otherworld as stigmatized in any way -- to the contrary, it\nseems to be something so alluring that women (not all, mind you) are\nwilling to commit murder. So while I can see your eugenics reading, I\ncannot see the social situation it seems to rely upon; otoh, the eugenics\nreading does not address the drive of Otherworld women to become mothers\nwhen it is not entirely a biological necessity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I didn't say that motherhood per se was stigmatized; rather, having many\nchildren and being an excessive charge on the public purse is stigmatized\n(again, as welfare mothers are here). In many societies in our world, women\nhave a strong desire to be mothers, though it's not biologically necessary;\nas for the question of \"murder,\" women presumably tell themselves, and are\ntold by their culture, that the fathers' deaths are necessary for the\npreservation of the species (as they are)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm happy you can see the \"super-mothers,\" although I'd rather you see them\nas just the mothers that I think they are." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On p. 2, Lara tells Green that mothers on her world bear \"Perhaps three\nchildren. Perhaps three dozen.\" This implies a broad range, and suggests\nto me that twenty-five is above average." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I sense that you still cannot\nsee the rather desperate pre-mothers: Gloria Brooks (maybe), the ice queen\n(definitely), and even Fanny." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't recall Gloria, but my impression is that the ice queen is too young\nto be really desperate. I'd attribute her sudden violence to a combination\nof her great triumph of attracting a man to her float being suddenly\nsnatched away, combined with Green's unfavorably comparing her to the\ngoddess (as she must think as she undoubtedly thinks, not realizing that for\nGreen Lara is a flesh-and-blood woman). And Fanny is happy to give up the\nputative advantages of motherhood in favor of being able to \"do it over and\nover\" with Green (309). Which is not to say that women in Otherworld don't\nstrongly desire to be mothers, as I said." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And I don't think the bill, if passed, would have increased the number of\nmale deaths. It's true that, to keep the rate of population growth fixed,\nmore men would have to become fathers. But I don't recall any indication\nthat the society is aiming for such a fixed target; and men aren't coerced\nto become fathers, though there is presumably social pressure to do so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Social pressure\" like the ice-queen float in the parade? \"Coercion\" like\nthat implied when the ice queen says, \"I'm not one of those people who put\na gun to your head . . . If you should change your mind\"? Or the naked\ncoercion when she goes after him with a knife? (23) Is the following\npassage indicative of social pressure or coercion?: [Dr. Pille talking\nabout the ice queen incident and why Green was diagnosed as an \"alcoholic\"\nwhich the hospital workers call \"sex change\"] \"Breach of promise is quite\nserious, as you must know. If I had said you were sound except for your\nconcussion, you'd have been taken to another hospital, and eventually to\nprison. By classifying you as an alcoholic, I was able to keep you at\nUnited and keep you off of psychoactive drugs\" (101)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are breach of promise suits in our world (or used to be), and women do\nsometimes try to kill men who jilt them. Had Green not entered the float,\nhe would have been unmolested." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(The dark humor: by rights, Green should have been sent to the hospital\nprison for his [ignorant] behavior, yet North, with his violent rap sheet\nand ties to secret societies, has still been assigned to the simple\nhospital. Shows the social weighting of their crimes, I supppose.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In fact North had been on the Violent Ward until a few days before Green\narrived (84); presumably he'd done a good job of play-acting.\n\nAnd what precisely is North's crime? His rap sheet says he was \"Arrested\n8/8/68 ngri.\" (128), but I don't know what that means. Actually there's an\napparent discrepancy in this regard. North tells Green when he first meets\nhim, not knowing yet that he's a Visitor, \"If you start and then you think\nmy God, I'm going to _die_, and you back out, they say you're crazy. Same\nthing happened to me.\" (38) But North is a Visitor too, so he wouldn't have\ndied. North could have backed out, like Green, for some other reason, but\nwhat?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Green\nsaying \"I'm not gay\" to the antique-collecting woman (233). (I could have\nsworn Green said it another time earlier on in Otherworld, but I can't find\nit now.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're right; to North, in fact. (39)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In addition to that, I find something very shady about North witnessing Al\nBailey's \"doing\" by Gloria Brooks . . . that he would be so passive when\nhis friend/recruit is being killed seems odd." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, North is planning his escape, and doesn't want to attract attention to\nhimself and be possibly returned to the Violent Ward. And his speech on p.\n91 suggests that he would regard a conspirator who let himself be seduced as\nweak and therefore expendable." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(More about Bailey: since the post-coitus/post-ejaculation death is more\nlike dying by AIDS, then how come Bailey is an instant KIA?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Did Bailey die immediately? The only two references I found to him don't\nsay anything about his dying." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ejaculation as the death-trigger, I can see that easily enough. And yet,\nwow, what a Catholic Christian utopia nightmare! No\nfornication, no auto eroticism, sexual congress is performed one time for\nreproductive purposes." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Uh huh. (Fanny's excitement at the prospect of being able to \"do it over\nand over,\" mentioned above, fits with this picture.)\n\nAside from the points I and Roy have already made, the mechanism you favor\nseems quite implausible, both biologically and evolutionarily. And I\npersonally have a hard time imagining the human race persisting without\nsexual frustration, unrelieved by masturbation, as one motivating factor for\nmen; though Wolfe might disagree.\n\nBut I don't really know. I doubt that there's enough evidence in the book\nto decide the question one way or another (though Wolfe might think there\nis); and I'm not sure it really makes much difference for the book as a\nwhole." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Later mantis wrote:\nThat is to say, I think that TAD shows a world where\nreproduction involves pre-fathers following Love/Death and pre-mothers\nfollowing Power, and the other men and women being pretty much the mass of\nnon-reproductive society, getting on with their lives." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This raises the question: what percentage of men become fathers, and women\nmothers? You seem to be suggesting that it's only a minority; and if you do\nthink that the average mother has twenty-five children, it had better be a\nminority, or there would be a population explosion. As I said, I haven't\nread the whole book in a long time; but as I recall, my impression when I\nread it had been that the majority of men became fathers. There are a\ncouple of quotes which to me support this view, though neither is\ndefinitive. Fanny tells Green \"Lots of men hold out for their entire lives,\ndamn them.\" (152); if a majority of men held out, I would expect her to say\n\"most men\" rather than \"lots of men.\" Watching Joe's fight with Sawyer,\nLara says of the audience \"They applaud him [Sawyer] now[.] But in a few\nyears he will be dead, and so will they.\" (292) Of course, Lara could be\nspeaking from an immortal goddess's perspective, and by \"a few years\" she\nmight mean fifty or sixty. And I realize that under this view there are\nproblems with population increase, even if the average number of children is\nsomewhat less than twenty-five; I don't know what to do about that.\n\nAnd speaking of population increase, where are all the children? The only\noccasion I've come across so far where children are seen in the book is the\nboys who are mentioned as following the parade." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ah, well we are in agreement on that one: two against the world! But their\nargument, iirc, is that Otherworld males are as biologically different from\nEarth males as O-females are from E-females -- so O-males are chaste and\npure (until a pre-mother does something which activates them) where E-males\nare not . . ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, either way, O-males have to be biologicall different from E-males,\nsince Green can have sex with Lara without dying, whereas an O-male could\nnot. But I don't think O-males are chaste and pure, though they don't have\ninvoluntary emissions (and their sex drives must presumably be somewhat\nweaker).\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2003-01-30T21:59:36+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) DOORS: The hive-like society", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "BTW I took a look at the Captain Billy's Whiz Bang ref, Adam. Pretty neat\nstuff." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam Stephanides wrote:\nActually, I hadn't been thinking of the bill's title at all. But now that\nyou mention it, I think that the reading you attribute to me fits better\nthan the one you prefer. Of course, bills here frequently have anodyne\ntitles which don't reflect their contents, let alone the motives behind them\n(USA Patriot Act, anyone?); presumably it's the same in Otherworld." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. In my defense I would say that we are now arguing over what the bill\nclaims to be about versus what it is really about. We can agree that it\nclaims to be about \"preserving families,\" but I still hold out the notion\nthat the real reason is something else (\"extending the franchise\" was the\nexample I gave). And I'm not talking about \"unanticipated consequences.\"\nFor an example from our world we might look at Prohibition and say that, as\nmadcap as it was, still it was a high ideal and/or an atonement for the\nwild booze years before it, yet at root (how to explain?) it seems like an\nexpression of the Puritan roots that preceded the founding of the nation.\n(The \"unanticipated consequence,\" of course, was the unprecedented rise of\norganized crime. How this could have been unanticipated remains a mystery,\nexcept for the strange blinders that always adorn rose-colored glasses.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Adam quoted me and wrote:\nBut I see no evidence of a welfare system at all in TAD." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "While it may not be mentioned explicitly, I think it's safe to say that one\nexists. Firstly, in matters not gender- or reproduction-related, Otherworld\nsociety seems similar to America in the late 1940s or early 1950s. We had a\nwelfare system then, though much less extensive than the Great Society, so\nit's reasonable to suppose that Otherworld does. Secondly, Green thinks at\none point that a society dominated by women would care more about children\nthan ours does. Though realistically there's no reason why Green should be\nin a position to know (he seems to observe very little that's not related to\nhis quest for Lara), I get the feeling we're supposed to regard his\nruminations on Otherworld as reliable. So if postwar America and Otherworld\ndiffer in this regard, I'd expect the difference to be in Otherworld's\nfavor. Third, and most importantly, the practical aspect: a woman living on\nher own, raising twenty-five children, could not possibly support herself\nunaided (unless she were rich)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "First point, right, but add they still have slavery, =mostly= in the South.\nThat should shake up the picture pretty nicely!\n\nI am willing to concede on some points: I, too, saw Lara's \"3 to 36\" number\nof babies, and have readjusted my sense (50 babies is thus far above\nnormal); likewise the shortage of young men -- there are too few young men\nto fight in wars, iirc a comment Gene Wolfe made about the Otherworld in\none or more interviews. We see this in the lack of a War Between the\nStates. (It also fits in with the idea that the ancient matriarchal\nutopias were all predicated on slavery.)\n\nSo in Otherworld most men die between the age of 14 and 21, let's say. Any\nman who survives beyond these years is either asexual or possesses an iron\nwill or is simply too frightened. And the breeding population isn't a\nminority, it is just that the men are winnowed out so early that adult men\nare a numerical minority.\n\nOTOH, I guess I should outline my other unsupported notions about family\nstructure and political structure in Otherworld. I figured that power\ncollected in families, whether they be blue bloods in New England or\nFaulknerian dynasties in the South. When every mother is a widow, there\nare no \"single moms\" is how I would put it -- new mothers would naturally\nhave a place already waiting for them at their own mothers's house.\nMothers would have power, but grandmothers would have more, and great\ngrandmothers -- whew!\n\nAs for Congress, I vaguely thought that the Senate would be something more\nlike a House of Mothers (or Grandmothers?) and the House of Representatives\nwould be the more plebian (maybe even have male politicians). So the\npassage of the bill through both would represent a surge from lower to\nupper.\n\nWe do not see any of this in the text: we see no grandmothers, we see no\ncongressional politicians (I don't think), we don't see any dynastic\nhouses. What we see are the \"little people\" at the bottom struggling to\nget up, just like the characters in FREE LIVE FREE. So granted, in these\ncircumstances we might expect to see \"single moms,\" mothers who are not an\nappendage of a larger household, but I do not think that we do." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I sense that you still cannot\nsee the rather desperate pre-mothers: Gloria Brooks (maybe), the ice queen\n(definitely), and even Fanny." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't recall Gloria, but my impression is that the ice queen is too young\nto be really desperate. I'd attribute her sudden violence to a combination\nof her great triumph of attracting a man to her float being suddenly\nsnatched away, combined with Green's unfavorably comparing her to the\ngoddess (as she must think as she undoubtedly thinks, not realizing that for\nGreen Lara is a flesh-and-blood woman). And Fanny is happy to give up the\nputative advantages of motherhood in favor of being able to \"do it over and\nover\" with Green (309). Which is not to say that women in Otherworld don't\nstrongly desire to be mothers, as I said." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I dunno. The thing about Fanny is, she is so ambitious to climb up the\nsocioeconomic ladder. As a police officer, Green could lead her to a\npromotion, or even a double-promotion, iirc her spoken fantasy on the\nsubject. The motherhood element does not seem to be for Fanny an\n\"either/or\" thing, that is, it does not seem to be a choice of career or\nmotherhood . . . it seems like an \"and\" thing: that motherhood will lead to\npromotion, either directly or as another element.\n\nThe thing about Gloria is that, if allegations are true, she has\nrape/murdered a patient in a mental ward. Far more predatory and serious\nthan the gay proposition in the Earth mental ward.\n\nThe ice queen, ah. My view of her is changing . . . today I see her, and\nall the doll-attackers as following a model of the goddess which just\nhappens to be wrong, according to the goddess herself. That is to say: the\nice queen is enacting the behavior of Cybele, and the stained glass that\nRoy was bugged by (sorry Roy, the short answer was \"Love-goddess-with-spear\nis far more ancient than Greek myths -- it is more like Ishtar and those\nother fierce Middle Eastern goddesses of Love & War\") is an example of the\nwrong model being enshrined. Because Cybele loved Attis and became\ninsanely jealous when he fell in love with a mortal princess, so she caused\nhis insanity, which made him cut himself: but in TAD Lara says this was all\na mistake and misunderstood, which I take to mean that Lara is more like\nAphrodite, and the Otherworld church is focused on Cybele.\n\nWith this in mind, obviously a rival (the doll or the \"other goddess\" who\nstands behind her) makes the Cybele-devotee go into a berserker rage: the\ndevotee re-enacts the whole thing.\n\nStill, a main point about the ice queen: she represents a socially\nsanctioned non-marriage approach to the reproductive situation. But talk\nabout random selection!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And what precisely is North's crime? His rap sheet says he was \"Arrested\n8/8/68 ngri.\" (128), but I don't know what that means." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Our mutual friend Google tells me that it means \"Not Guilty by Reason of\nInsanity.\"\n\nAs for North's secret societies, \"Iron Boot\" reminds me of Jack London's\nTHE IRON HEEL, a rather prophetic vision of fascism." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Green\nsaying \"I'm not gay\" to the antique-collecting woman (233). (I could have\nsworn Green said it another time earlier on in Otherworld, but I can't find\nit now.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You're right; to North, in fact. (39)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks, Adam! Yikes, for a guy who hasn't reread the book, you've got an\nunbelievable grip on it -- did you index it during your first read? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Did Bailey die immediately? The only two references I found to him don't\nsay anything about his dying." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right, I'll grant you that. Then again, I don't see anybody making any\nmoves to say goodbye to Al, shake his hand -- their sense of him seems to\nbe very past tense." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Uh huh. (Fanny's excitement at the prospect of being able to \"do it over\nand over,\" mentioned above, fits with this picture.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I dunno. Fanny's excitement is very odd to me . . . it marks her, somehow,\nbut as what? A visitor, maybe. Or an Aphrodite devotee in a world of\nCybele worshipers. (Ooops, these two options aren't that different.)\n\nIt is one of those weird little shifts, like when Green says that E-women\nat singles bars and company picnics were just like O-women -- after babies,\nnot after Love.\n\nIn a sense she is playing it perfectly: she will be his Aphrodite.\n(Aphrodite likes to do it over and over; Aphrodite doesn't much like having\nbabies, which is what those earth mothers like Cybele do.) Unfortunately,\nGreen does not love Fanny, so for him it just signals another loveless\ncoupling, the type he has been rejecting all through the book.\n\n=mantis=" } ] } ] }