Subject: (urth) the great god Pan

From: Russell Wodell <hse at telus.net>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 01:13:12 +0000

As I recall (dimly),  Plutarch said a sailor heard a voice from a
distant island commanding him to proclaim that "The great god Pan is
dead!"
Since Pan's name literally means "All,"  I had always assumed that this
was supposed to be a coded message that the entire Greek pantheon of
gods were dead - i.e., that the Christian era was coming. In Soldier in
the Mist the lamia complains that Io has dropped her chains into the
snake's hole, that supernatural beings dislike iron, and that "The
reason is to come." Again, dimly do I recall that faeries were supposed
to shun iron because of the significance of the nails holding Christ to
the cross. 
This raises the wider question of Wolfe's ambiguous and often quite
terrifying presentation of the Greek deities. I think we are to view
them as actual gods, not just Latro's hallucinations, but Wolfe says in
one interview that they were "not worthy of being worshipped." Would
that make them demons? What is the orthodox Catholic position these days
on rival religions and their supernatural beings? Certainly the
underlying logic of the Latro novels thus far is the move from
Earth-worship to Father-worship, and as usual in Wolfe all the major
evil characters are either female (or in one case) become female.  (Not
that he's totally misogynistic: the Amazons are portrayed entirely
positively, and Io the slave girl is the brightest and best of all his
characters.)

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From: Chris <rasputin_ at hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 01:38:09 +0000

The bit about iron is interesting- while I'd heard that the sidhe had a 
problem with iron, I never knew there was an underlying reason behind it. 
Are there any other sources that might explain the significance of iron, and 
whether it was referred to before the Christian Era or not?

I do think that sometimes too much is made of Wolfe's Catholicism, as I 
think has been mentioned here before. And jamming this story into an 
"orthodox" Catholic framework is likely to be an uncomfortable fit.

I never felt, reading the stories, that any of the goddesses were purely 
evil, though certainly inhuman and for the most part cruel. I doubt any of 
the male gods would behave any better when push came to shove. I don't think 
it's misogynistic - I really think the most villainous characters in this 
story were male, actually, though they knew how to put a good face on it.

That said, the bit about Io... she's a bright character, but that is at 
least in part because Latro cares about her and portrays her positively. 
Despite that, there are some things to be uncomfortable about- and I suspect 
that Latro's deep (mysterious) depression had a bit to do with the way she 
changed the nature of their relationship to protect herself, among other 
things. He may not have remembered any better, but I suspect he'd have still 
felt like something was wrong there.

Chris

>positively, and Io the slave girl is the brightest and best of all his

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From: James Jordan <jbjordan4 at cox.net>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 02:24:53 +0000

Russell rote:

>>terrifying presentation of the Greek deities.

         A whole lot of what we are brought up on about ancient Greek and 
Roman religion has been cleaned up. You never hear about the human 
sacrifices offered before important battles, so that human entrails could 
be read. Stories about the gods have often been cleaned up too. In reality, 
they were a pretty frightening bunch, which is why they had to be appeased 
and bought-off all the time. Happily, modern scholarship seems much more 
open about such matters, not writing books for children and for 19th c. prudes.

>>  I think we are to view
>>that make them demons?

         Probably. Fallen angels.

>>  What is the orthodox Catholic position these days
>>on rival religions and their supernatural beings?

         I think Wolfe would agree that when Adam gave the world to Satan, 
and put his posterity under Satan (though he probably does not take the 
story literally), he gave the world and humanity over to the demonic realm. 
He is clearly "conservative" on the general matter, anyway, since he does 
not demythologize demons and "gods" into "aspects of human consciousness" 
or some such thing.
         I don't know that Wolfe would say, "There was a demon named 
Athena, and another named Baal." But I think he would say that demons did 
occasionally interact with people, who then concocted names and stories 
about them.

>>Certainly the

         I think that's right. Latro is on his way to some kind of contact 
with Israel -- which doubtless will be muted and concealed in the text, 
providing Wolfe lives to write it. The evil female characters have to do 
with worshipping the creature (earth) rather than the creator (God). Wolfe 
shows us where he thinks such an orientation leads, to cruelty and horror.

Nutria

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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <ddanehy at siebel.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 17:09:56 +0000

Russell then Nutria wrote:

>> I think we are to view them as actual gods, not just
>> Latro's hallucinations,

I think rather "actual 'supernatural' beings," though not
necessarily gods. -- I put the word "supernatural" in quotes
because I believe, and I believe that Wolfe either believes
or, at least, takes as a given for his fictions, that the
word "supernatural" implies a false (possibly a Manicheistic)
division. The only "supernatural" being, by this understanding,
is God; the rest are all creatures, and, as such, bounded, 
delimited as it were, by the rules of their making. These rules 
may not be exactly the same from one type of being to another, 
of course, but all creatures exist within some such bounds.
The point here: beings like the "gods" of the _Soldier_ books,
or of the Short/Long Sun books, are much (infinitely) more like
us than they are like the one supernatural Being. 

>> but Wolfe says in one interview that they were "not worthy 
>> of being worshipped." Would that make them demons?
> 
>          Probably. Fallen angels.

Not necessarily ... demons are not the only creatures "not
worthy of being worshipped." There are, for example, you
and me and the rest of the human race. Non-fallen angels, 
also, are not worthy of being worshipped. In point of fact,
from the Catholic, or merely Christian, point of view, all
creatures have this in common ...

... but creatures mistakenly worshipped are not necessarily
fallen angels. Wandering back to that C**F** discussion, I
hurry to point out that both Tolkien and Lewis give examples
in their fictions of how beings may be taken for gods and 
still be under the Obedience -- indeed, that being taken for
gods may be an aspect of their obedience. (The clearest 
example is the wizard on the island of the Dufflepuds, in 
THE VOYAGE OF THE DAWN TREADER.) 

And, too, there is Wolfe's interesting dictum that what
pretends to be a god tends to become the god ... to which 
end I point to Lewis again; his last, and possibly best,
novel, TILL WE HAVE FACES, makes use of the Greek Psyche
-- himself disguised as a local god -- as a disguise or
mask for the one God. (Well, sort of ... that's at least 
one well-worn interpretation ...)

>> on rival religions and their supernatural beings?

...deleting James' response...

As far as I've been able to tell (and this means, among
other things, having searched the Catechism of the Catholic
Church [CCC], a more-or-less complete document of What 
Catholics Are Expected To Believe), there is no officially 
orthodox position on this matter ... which would mean that 
a Catholic is at liberty to believe what s/he chooses, 
_provided_ it doesn't contradict any of the things a 
Catholic _is_ expected to believe. 

A great deal of Catholic ink has been spilled over the years
concerning the idea that pagan religions are best understood
as a "preparation" for the Gospel (as, indeed, is the Jewish
Law); for example, this is referred to in CCC at #843. The
exact mechanism by which this "preparation" is performed,
however, is left open -- and can mean anything from a natural
tendency of the human mind towards God (CCC #781) to purely
speculative and para-orthodox ideas about God using angels,
or even demons, to plant religious ideas and thus to prepare 
peoples for the Gospel.

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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 08:18:21 +0000

> From:
> "Russell Wodell" <hse at telus.net>

> evil characters are either female (or in one case) become female.  

=All= as usual? Is there something we don't know about Typhon or Baldanders?

-- 
Jeff Wilson
How Am I Posting? 1-800-555-6789
"If your SecOp can see you, so can the enemy." -Cpt Law

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From: Michael Straight <straight at email.unc.edu>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 00:58:39 +0000

> =All= as usual? Is there something we don't know about Typhon or Baldanders?

Or Musk?  Or Lemur?

And even in Latro, I'd say the Spartan leaders are *the* major evil
characters.

-Rostrum

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