{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3816", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3816, "subject": "Sign from the fish's belly", "messages": 14, "voices": 6, "first": "2003-01-27T13:36:10+00:00", "last": "2003-01-28T20:42:45+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Bollen", "address": "abollen at internode.on.net" }, "date": "2003-01-27T13:36:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sign from the fish's belly", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I asked this:\n\n--- Marble prophesies for Horn regarding the community (at the beginning of\nOBW): \"The city searches the sky for a sign, but no sign shall it have but\nthe sign from the fish's belly.\" Anybody have an explanation for this?\n\nI think the answer is:\n\n----------------------------------------\n[Matthew 16]\nThe Pharisees and Sadducees came to Jesus and tested him by asking him to\nshow them a sign from heaven. 2 He replied, 'When evening comes, you say,\n`It will be fair weather, for the sky is red,' 3 and in the morning, `Today\nit will be stormy, for the sky is red and overcast.' You know how to\ninterpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of\nthe times. 4 A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a miraculous sign,\nbut none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.'\n----------------------------------------\n\nOr repeated:\n\n----------------------------------------\n[Matthew 12:38-40]\nThen some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, 'Teacher, we\nwant to see a miraculous sign from you.' 39 He answered, 'A wicked and\nadulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it\nexcept the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and\nthree nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three\ndays and three nights in the heart of the earth.\n----------------------------------------\n\nSo it seems clear that \"sign from the fish's belly\" = \"sign of Jonah\". (I\ntake it that Marble is repeating a phrase from the Chras writings here.)\n\nGoogling reveals a whole bunch of varied ravings about the meaning of the\nsign of Jonah, but maybe this:\n\n- Jonah's 3 days in the belly of the fish as a prefigurement of Jesus'\ndeath & resurrection. So should we think of Horn's time in the pit on the\nisland, or should we scrap the 3 days & nights and think of this as a\nprophecy of SilkHorn's return to straighten things out in New Viron - Horn\nhaving \"died\" and been \"reborn\"?\n\n- After he is disgorged by the whale, Jonah goes to preach repentance to the\nheathen city of Nineveh. Suprisingly, all 120,000 of them immediately do so,\ncovering themselves with ashes & sack-cloth etc. (Jonah is pissed, because\nhe was hoping Yahweh would do some serious smiting, Nineveh being an enemy\nto Israel.) So the imagery is maybe the conversion of all a whole nation to\nrighteousness, after the \"death\" and \"resurrection\" of the prophet." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tami Whitehead", "address": "razorkittee at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2003-01-27T18:29:36+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Sign from the fish's belly", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just a small aside, and perhaps not even relevant (I\nshouldn't even be reading these spoilers, since I have\nonly now started with the Long Sun set...)\n\nBut the theological twist on Jonah is, as you alluded\nin your post, a resistance to God's will on Jonah's\npart. He heard the call to prophecy to his enemies,\nand like many prophets, did not want to go (prophets\nhave their different reasons, but it is pretty\nconsistant that they do not want to be prophets when\ncalled, and pretty much try to get out of it when they\ncan...counterpose this with the Christ, or rather, the\nreluctant Messiah outlined by Frazer in Golden Bough,\nand you have an interesting twist).\n\nJonah is called to Ninevah, to save the Ninevites from\nGod's Destruction. He says, \"God must be crazy, I am\nnot going to help those louts,\" and boards a boat for\nfarther Hispaniola or the like, intent on thwarting\nGod's will, but God sends a storm, and Jonah's boat\nwill be lost, and he knows why, so he urges his\nshipmates to throw him overboard to appease God, which\nthey do, and the fish swallows him up, only later to\nvomit him on the shores of Ninevah...and he was a\nchanged man so to speak, and preached (reluctantly)\nthe salvation of the enemy, who repented (to his\nchagrin) and were saved. \n\nNow, not knowing how this fits into the Horn question,\nthe thing that has struck me deepest on Jonah's story\nis exactly the resistance to God's will, and how the\nwhole thing is supposed to be a prefigurement of\nChrist...whose resistance is dimmed somewhat in the\nPassion in the Garden of Gethsemene, Lord if it be thy\nwill let this cup pass from me...I wonder...what if\nChrist was more like Jonah, and really thought we\nlouts deserved to burn, and was finally sacrificed\nwhile still resenting God's call, or the redemption of\nus sinners? Then there is the question of the 3 days\nand nites, which for Jonah served 2 purposes, to\npunish and humble him, and also to put him where he\nneeded to be to accomplish the task given. For Christ,\nthe 3 days and nites are purportedly to make him\nofficially dead, and therefore officially risen, which\nis the operative here (the Resurection supercedes the\nSacrifice. Go figure.) If the parallel is followed,\nthen Christ went to hell for a slightly different\nreason...besides just getting the keys to hell. \n\nAnyhow, back to the fish thing, there are so many\nsacred and prophetic fishes in Levantine, Occidental\nand Western European myth, I might want another clue\nto be sure we had the right angle with Jonah...there\nis the old Jewish tradition that a fish eye represents\nGod's Mercy, being lidless and therefor never closed\nto the suffering of man etc...or wise salmon who eat\nacorns of wisdom in sacred pools, or flounders who\nwere bewitched bishops and so forth...the mitre worn\nby the Pope is also a fish symbol, but you knew\nthat...\n\nMy, how I rambled...hehehe, just fishing folks! \n\nrazorkittee " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Andrew Bollen wrote:\nI asked this:\n\n--- Marble prophesies for Horn regarding the\ncommunity (at the beginning of\nOBW): \"The city searches the sky for a sign, but no\nsign shall it have but\nthe sign from the fish's belly.\" Anybody have an\nexplanation for this?\n\nI think the answer is:\n\n----------------------------------------\n[Matthew 16]\nThe Pharisees and Sadducees came to Jesus and tested\nhim by asking him to\nshow them a sign from heaven. 2 He replied, 'When\nevening comes, you say,\n`It will be fair weather, for the sky is red,' 3 and\nin the morning, `Today\nit will be stormy, for the sky is red and overcast.'\nYou know how to\ninterpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot\ninterpret the signs of\nthe times. 4 A wicked and adulterous generation\nlooks for a miraculous sign,\nbut none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.'\n----------------------------------------\n\nOr repeated:\n\n----------------------------------------\n[Matthew 12:38-40]\nThen some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law\nsaid to him, 'Teacher, we\nwant to see a miraculous sign from you.' 39 He\nanswered, 'A wicked and\nadulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign!\nBut none will be given it\nexcept the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as\nJonah was three days and\nthree nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son\nof Man will be three\ndays and three nights in the heart of the earth.\n----------------------------------------\n\nSo it seems clear that \"sign from the fish's belly\"\n= \"sign of Jonah\". (I\ntake it that Marble is repeating a phrase from the\nChras writings here.)\n\nGoogling reveals a whole bunch of varied ravings\nabout the meaning of the\nsign of Jonah, but maybe this:\n\n- Jonah's 3 days in the belly of the fish as a\nprefigurement of Jesus'\ndeath & resurrection. So should we think of Horn's\ntime in the pit on the\nisland, or should we scrap the 3 days & nights and\nthink of this as a\nprophecy of SilkHorn's return to straighten things\nout in New Viron - Horn\nhaving \"died\" and been \"reborn\"?\n\n- After he is disgorged by the whale, Jonah goes to\npreach repentance to the\nheathen city of Nineveh. Suprisingly, all 120,000 of\nthem immediately do so,\ncovering themselves with ashes & sack-cloth etc.\n(Jonah is pissed, because\nhe was hoping Yahweh would do some serious smiting,\nNineveh being an enemy\nto Israel.) So the imagery is maybe the conversion\nof all a whole nation to\nrighteousness, after the \"death\" and \"resurrection\"\nof the prophet.\n\n\n\n\n-- \nhttp://www.urth.net/\nTo unsubscribe: send \"unsubscribe\" to" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "urth-request at urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Geller", "address": "dclxvi at dclxvi.best.vwh.net" }, "date": "2003-01-27T18:41:03+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Sign from the fish's belly", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 27 Jan 2003, Tami Whitehead wrote:\nBut the theological twist on Jonah is, as you alluded\nin your post, a resistance to God's will on Jonah's\npart. He heard the call to prophecy to his enemies,\nand like many prophets, did not want to go [...]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mostly for health reasons.\n\nA prophet is normally being instructed to inform people who\nare more powerful than he is of something that they don't want\nto hear.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tami Whitehead", "address": "razorkittee at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2003-01-27T18:51:10+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Sign from the fish's belly", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi Josh, \nJonah pleaded ill health, but God saw through his\nflimsy excuse.(God would have healed his illness, had\nthat really been the case). Re-read the book of\nJonah...his hate and resentment of the Ninevites is\nvery apparent as the reason for his rebellion, not his\nhealth, else why go even farther on a more arduous\njourney to evade the mission? \n\nYes, prophets are normally regular folks sent to say\nsomething to more powerful folks they don't want to\nhear...and that is often a reason for not wanting to\nprophesy...there is also to common complaint of\nprophets \"Why me? Leave me alone, let me get on with\nmy humble life...I never asked to be a mouthpiece for\nGod.\" There is something to be said for not wanting to\nbe sent on Divine Missions, or touched by God, etc.\nThe books of the Prophets show more than the reaction\nof those prophesied to, but also how the Prophets\nthemselves are brought into line. Check it out. \n\nrazorkittee" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Josh Geller wrote:\n\n\nOn Mon, 27 Jan 2003, Tami Whitehead wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But the theological twist on Jonah is, as you\nalluded\nin your post, a resistance to God's will on\nJonah's\npart. He heard the call to prophecy to his\nenemies,\nand like many prophets, did not want to go [...]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mostly for health reasons.\n\nA prophet is normally being instructed to inform\npeople who\nare more powerful than he is of something that they\ndon't want\nto hear.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n.\n\n\n\n-- \nhttp://www.urth.net/\nTo unsubscribe: send \"unsubscribe\" to" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "urth-request at urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Geller", "address": "dclxvi at dclxvi.best.vwh.net" }, "date": "2003-01-27T19:05:56+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Sign from the fish's belly", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 27 Jan 2003, Tami Whitehead wrote:\n--- Josh Geller wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Mon, 27 Jan 2003, Tami Whitehead wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "But the theological twist on Jonah is, as you\nalluded in your post, a resistance to God's will\non Jonah's part. He heard the call to prophecy to\nhis enemies, and like many prophets, did not want\n to go [...]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Mostly for health reasons." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jonah pleaded ill health[....]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is not exactly what I was getting at.\n\nIf you, an ordinary person, go and stand in front of a King and tell\nhim that he is forbidden from doing something he wants to do (for\ninstance), or go to an enemy country and stand up in the public\nmarketplace and stand up and tell all passersby what horrible people\nthey are, your life is likely to end swiftly and painfully.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2003-01-27T19:00:04+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Sign from the fish's belly", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the quotations from Matthew nail down the reference pretty well, \nactually. I am convinced that it's a reference intended to relate Horn to \nChrist in a typically prophetic way; but, come to think of it what I hadn't \nconsidered was that it would seem to indicate that Marble has a much clearer \nidea of the \"big picture\" than I'd really considered.\n\nThere is room for debate, to me, as to what the significance of the 3 days \nin the belly of the fish- it seems open to interpretation. The way I've \nalways looked at it, the purpose was to purify Jonah, making him a tool \nworthy of God... possibly by *means* of the punishment, and not just \nconcurrent with it. But what bothers me is that it's the Ninevites who are \nreceiving the Sign of Jonah and not Jonah himself, so it seems like looking \nat the whole thing from Jonah's perspective is the wrong angle. As far as \nthe Ninevites concerned, it's a matter of some guy who should have been dead \npopping out of an unlikely/impossible place and giving them a message of \ndoom and repentance, and, well, that's about all I can think of.\n\nChris" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"We have arrived at that point where in every civilization Caesar is killed, \nAlexander catches some complaint and dies; personality is exhausted... and \nthe art schools are more intelligent every day.\"\n-- W.B. Yeats" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anyhow, back to the fish thing, there are so many\nsacred and prophetic fishes in Levantine, Occidental\nand Western European myth, I might want another clue\nto be sure we had the right angle with Jonah...there\nis the old Jewish tradition that a fish eye represents\nGod's Mercy, being lidless and therefor never closed\nto the suffering of man etc...or wise salmon who eat\nacorns of wisdom in sacred pools, or flounders who\nwere bewitched bishops and so forth...the mitre worn\nby the Pope is also a fish symbol, but you knew\nthat...\n\nMy, how I rambled...hehehe, just fishing folks!\n\nrazorkittee" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2003-01-27T20:26:37+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Sign from the fish's belly", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 07:36 AM 1/27/2003, you wrote:\nI asked this:\n\n--- Marble prophesies for Horn regarding the community (at the beginning of\nOBW): \"The city searches the sky for a sign, but no sign shall it have but\nthe sign from the fish's belly.\" Anybody have an explanation for this?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So it seems clear that \"sign from the fish's belly\" = \"sign of Jonah\". (I\ntake it that Marble is repeating a phrase from the Chras writings here.)\n\nGoogling reveals a whole bunch of varied ravings about the meaning of the\nsign of Jonah, but maybe this:\n\n- Jonah's 3 days in the belly of the fish as a prefigurement of Jesus'\ndeath & resurrection. So should we think of Horn's time in the pit on the\nisland, or should we scrap the 3 days & nights and think of this as a\nprophecy of SilkHorn's return to straighten things out in New Viron - Horn\nhaving \"died\" and been \"reborn\"?\n\n- After he is disgorged by the whale, Jonah goes to preach repentance to the\nheathen city of Nineveh. Suprisingly, all 120,000 of them immediately do so,\ncovering themselves with ashes & sack-cloth etc. (Jonah is pissed, because\nhe was hoping Yahweh would do some serious smiting, Nineveh being an enemy\nto Israel.) So the imagery is maybe the conversion of all a whole nation to\nrighteousness, after the \"death\" and \"resurrection\" of the prophet." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " The question is how much of the Jonah//Jesus story does (a) Wolfe \ncatch, and (b) Wolfe intend.\n Jonah did not want to go to Nineveh, because of the prophecy in \nDeuteronomy that if God's people provoke Him with \"no-gods\" (idols), He \nwill provoke them by going over to another people (\"no-people\"). God \nannouncement to Jonah was an announcement that He was fed up with Israel, \nand was going to go over to these gentiles. Jonah, as one who loved his own \npeople, did not want to see this happen.\n At this point in history, Assyria (Nineveh) was not a great power, \nand not much of a problem to Israel, whose major enemy was Syria \n(Damascus). After a century, Assyria would become the enemy. So careful \nexpositors don't usually say that Jonah hated the Assyrians, but that he \nunderstood that his call to go there was a judgment on his own people. But \nWolfe may not have studied all this out.\n Jesus' \"sign of Jonah\" is of a piece with this history. Repeatedly \nHe has indicated that His new kingdom will be received by more gentiles \nthan Jews. Indeed, His new assistants are no longer shepherds but fishermen \n(in Biblical imagery, Gentiles are associated with the sea, across waters, \nwhile Israel is associated with land).\n The death-resurrection business is, thus, in part a death to the \nold people and a resurrection to a new one. The old people don't want what \nthe prophet brings, but the new people will hear it.\n I suspect Wolfe knows part of this at least. New Viron searches \nthe sky for a sign (looks to Silk on the Whorl), but what they receive will \nbe something they may well reject, and will be good news to others. To \nwhom? Who actually takes the most interest in Silkhorn's \"ministry\"? New \nViron or other places? Or even the inhumi, so pathetically desperate to be \nfully human?\n Perhaps closer to the actual events: Horn dies and is resurrected, \nand then goes not to anywhere on Blue but to Green. What does he do on \nGreen, but clean out the city there (Nineveh, a gentile city - ?). Does \nthis correspond in Lupine thought to evangelism of the city, cleansing it? \nWho benefits from it? (A good question: Who does? I'm not sure I know.)\n Now, in the gospels, the sign of Jonah is a sign to the Jews. That \nis, that the reception of the resurrected Jesus by gentiles is a sign to \nthe Jews that they'd better get on board. In what way is Horn's work on \nGreen (Nineveh Gentiles) a sign to people on Blue (Jews)? Maybe that if \nthey don't shape up, if they don't learn the wisdom that the \ndouble-resurrected Silkhorn brings them, they'll wind up like the city on \nGreen? Or something else?\n I don't know. But it looks as if this is a deepstructure in the \nnarrative that would repay closer attention.\n Someone asked about the \"3 days/nights\" in the gospels. Start the \nclock with the arrest of Jesus on Thursday night, after he has agreed to \ndie, when everyone abandons him. \"In the heart of the earth\" is a broader \nconcept than merely lying in a tomb; note the symbolic use of \"heart\" in \nthe phrase. One has to read Biblical language in terms of the Biblical \nworldview, not in terms of ours. 3 days/nights under the \"power\" of death.\n\nFWIW\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tami Whitehead", "address": "razorkittee at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2003-01-27T21:27:30+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Sign from the fish's belly", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Josh Geller wrote:\n\n\nOn Mon, 27 Jan 2003, Tami Whitehead wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- Josh Geller \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Mon, 27 Jan 2003, Tami Whitehead wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "But the theological twist on Jonah is, as you\nalluded in your post, a resistance to God's will\non Jonah's part. He heard the call to prophecy\nto\nhis enemies, and like many prophets, did not\nwant\n to go [...]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Mostly for health reasons." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jonah pleaded ill health[....]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is not exactly what I was getting at.\n\nIf you, an ordinary person, go and stand in front of\na King and tell\nhim that he is forbidden from doing something he\nwants to do (for\ninstance), or go to an enemy country and stand up in\nthe public\nmarketplace and stand up and tell all passersby what\nhorrible people\nthey are, your life is likely to end swiftly and\npainfully." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, Josh, I got that, and I agree, it is a strong\ndeterent. I merely point out the other reasons as\nwell. I merely point out that there is more than one\nreason to rebell, as it were. Then there are those\nprophets who dig it, and more power to them. God calls\nus all in different ways, one could say, and we all\nrespond to that call differently, according to the\nsituation, both inwardly and outwardly. But yes,\ncertainly, fear of death or other reprisal is\ndefinately a valid concern. \n\nrk" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": ".\n\n\n\n-- \nhttp://www.urth.net/\nTo unsubscribe: send \"unsubscribe\" to" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "urth-request at urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Bollen", "address": "abollen at internode.on.net" }, "date": "2003-01-28T01:38:42+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Sign from the fish's belly", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nutria writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Jonah did not want to go to Nineveh, because of the prophecy in\nDeuteronomy that if God's people provoke Him with \"no-gods\" (idols), He\nwill provoke them by going over to another people (\"no-people\"). God\nannouncement to Jonah was an announcement that He was fed up with Israel,\nand was going to go over to these gentiles. Jonah, as one who loved his\nown\npeople, did not want to see this happen." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[snippety]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So careful\nexpositors don't usually say that Jonah hated the Assyrians, but that he\nunderstood that his call to go there was a judgment on his own people." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks, Nutria - I now undertand Jonah's rather odd testiness over God\nsparing the Ninevites." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Perhaps closer to the actual events: Horn dies and is\nresurrected,\nand then goes not to anywhere on Blue but to Green. What does he do on\nGreen, but clean out the city there (Nineveh, a gentile city - ?). Does\nthis correspond in Lupine thought to evangelism of the city, cleansing it?\nWho benefits from it? (A good question: Who does? I'm not sure I know.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the whole of Green, and Blue also, benefit from cleansing the city\non Green. Just as a practical matter, it's the inhumi's main center. From\nthere, they launch their raids on human settlements, using human slaves\nbound by the hostage lives of their children etc (as was the case for Auk\nand Chenille.) I'd suspect, also, that it may contain technology useul to\nhumans. (See SilkHorn's comments about the possible rewards from digging in\nplaces like Inclito's house etc.)\n\nPerhaps more importantly, the cleansing is a demonstration of what can be\nachieved when humans work together, rather than remaining fragmented." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Now, in the gospels, the sign of Jonah is a sign to the Jews." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "is, that the reception of the resurrected Jesus by gentiles is a sign to\nthe Jews that they'd better get on board. In what way is Horn's work on\nGreen (Nineveh Gentiles) a sign to people on Blue (Jews)? Maybe that if\nthey don't shape up, if they don't learn the wisdom that the\ndouble-resurrected Silkhorn brings them, they'll wind up like the city on\nGreen? Or something else?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This may indeed be the case, but my reading is a little more general &\npositive. I think it speaks of a very fast, very comprehensive turn to\nrighteousness, even by those not of the Vironese faith, all over Blue (and\nGreen). SilkHorn does indeed achieve this in Gaon (if we believe the\ndescription of Gaon given to Inclito by an ex-mercenary of the Rajan's -\nnice place, nobody steals etc etc), in Blanko, in Dorp, and I believe in New\nViron as well. As the conclusion of RTTW, BlazingStar, the best of the New\nVironese oligarchy, is calde. Daisy looks at the departing Whorl through a\ntelescope, which indicates either a growth in local manufacture (at the\nbeginning of OBW, New Viron mines lead, but does not grind lenses) and/or\ntrade (Dorp grinds lenses).\n\nI don't think this last point should be dismissed lightly; I think in\nWolfe's mind, righteousness is congruent with good order, which in turn is\ncongruent with things like ease of trade & travel. Witness many comments to\nthis effect throughout SS, and especially the practical significance of the\nDorp \"cleansing\".\n\nOf course, it would be impossible for a mere unaided human to achieve all\nthis in a couple of years, and SilkHorn's success is surely due to divine\naid & inspiration. So I would read the Marble's prophecy as foretelling\nsuccess, and not so much as a warning. The divine intervention will be in\nthe form to a hero/judge/prophet divinely inspired with the charisma, wisdom\n& efficacy to cause righteousness & inspire the people to its pursuit, and\nnot in the form of Pas-ish epiphanies, or Mother magic." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2003-01-28T15:13:45+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Sign from the fish's belly", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tami Whitehead said:\nNow, not knowing how this fits into the Horn question, the thing that has\nstruck me deepest on Jonah's story is exactly the resistance to God's will,\nand how the whole thing is supposed to be a prefigurement of Christ...\n\nCrush offers\nSince your speculation was not how this relates Horn, the answer to what\nthis was all about (I think) was explained by Jesus...\n\nMatthew 12:41 - The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this\ngeneration, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of\nJonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas [is] here.\n\nThe point is that Nineveh repented, receiving no more \"sign\" than that a\nprophet \"arose\" from the deeps after having been three days in the belly of\na fish. Jesus said that the aggregate of the current \"generation\" in\nJerusalem and Galilee would not repent although they received a sign of the\n\"greatest of prophets\" rising from three days in the grave.\n\nThere IS a subtle application in this to the \"Long Sun/Short Sun\" in that\n\"underwater\" is so ubiquitously associated with the \"underworld\"; that is,\nthe land of the dead and the source of prophecy.\n\nBTW - Nutria gave a very interesting explanation of \"3 days and nights\" in\nthe grave phrase. On the other hand, a more prosaic explanation is that the\nHebrews and Romans did not have a zero at the time. Counting was conducted\nin terms of \"first, second, third, etc.\" rather than \"one, two, three, etc.\"\nDays were from sunrise to sundown, not 24-hour intervals. So when Herod\nslays infants two years and younger it means \"infants in their second year\"\nor \"one year and younger.\" Jesus was in the tomb (late) Friday, Saturday,\nand (early) Sunday - \"three days\"\n\nThe phrase \"three days and three nights\" is an idiom; it doesn't make\nlogical sense and doesn't have to. Matthew quotes it even though he later\nsays that Jesus went into the tomb on Friday at dusk and came out on Sunday\nat sunrise. I remember the reaction of some Latino children to the phrase\n\"when the alarm goes off.\" They thought it was very funny. \"The alarm\ndoesn't 'go off', it 'goes on'.\"\n\nCrush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2003-01-28T15:45:58+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Sign from the fish's belly", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 09:13 AM 1/28/2003, Crush wrote:\nThere IS a subtle application in this to the \"Long Sun/Short Sun\" in that\n\"underwater\" is so ubiquitously associated with the \"underworld\"; that is,\nthe land of the dead and the source of prophecy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmm, looking back at the actual statement:\n\n\"The city searches the sky for a sign, but no sign shall it have but\nthe sign from the fish's belly.\"\n\nNote the opposition of searching the sky and true sign from the sea. Maybe \nafter all Wolfe is not pointing very much to Jonah and Jesus but to \nSeawrack. Is the Mother the fish? Is Seawrack's loyalty to Silkhorn the \nsign? And the fact that she can fall back into the sea if she is separated \nfrom this messiah?\n Or, could this be another angle in a multi-layered prophecy?\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tami Whitehead", "address": "razorkittee at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2003-01-28T18:03:42+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Sign from the fish's belly", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nutria writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Jonah did not want to go to Nineveh,\nbecause of the prophecy in\nDeuteronomy that if God's people provoke Him with\n\"no-gods\" (idols), He\nwill provoke them by going over to another people\n(\"no-people\"). God\nannouncement to Jonah was an announcement that He\nwas fed up with Israel,\nand was going to go over to these gentiles. Jonah,\nas one who loved his\nown\npeople, did not want to see this happen." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[snippety]\n > So careful\nexpositors don't usually say that Jonah hated the\nAssyrians, but that he\nunderstood that his call to go there was a\njudgment on his own people." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks Nutria. In re-reading the Book of Jonah,\nhowever, I am still of the mind that Jonah just had a\nbad attitude, and wasn't so much concerned with the\nprophecy of Deuteronomy. It is an interesting point\nyou make however, and indeed raises some very\nimportant points concerning Gentile Christianity, and\nthe availability of redemption to non-Hebrews.\nHowever, if the whole Jonah question is to be followed\nthrough, and if this is indeed a semi-serious 'clue'\nto some obscure goings on in a series I haven't read\nyet(wink)I point out the following, as it may have a\nbearing, and again, I leave it to those who more\nqualified to discuss to the matter:\n\nThe Ninevites did not see Jonah come from the fish.\nThe fish spat him out, the Lord spoke to him again,\nand he went to the city saying it would fall in 40\ndays, and *that* was why the King ordered the city to\nfast and repent. \n\n*This* (it says in the Book) really pissed Jonah off,\nand he went to pout in a little booth outside the\ncity, to wait and watch for God to smite them after\nall, and would rather die. God sent a gourd to cover\nhim, which made him glad, then God sent a worm to\nsmite the gourd, which made Jonah want to die again.\n(Maybe Prozac would have helped, hehehe). \n\nSo, at this point, and it is a very short book, God\ntells Jonah, Why be angry about the gourd, and Jonah\nsays he is right to be angry about it. God reminds\nJonah he didn't make the gourd, and it lived only a\nshort time, and compares it to the Ninevites \"Should\nnot I spare the Ninevah, that great city, wherein\nthere are more than sixscore thousand who do not know\ntheir right hand from their left, and also much\ncattle?\" \n\nAnd so ends the book of Jonah, rather like a GW book,\nabruptly, and not at all to our satisfaction, let\nalone Jonah's. \n\nI only point these things out becuase there seems to\nbe much hinging on the sign from the fish, but there\nwas no sign for the Ninevites of a fish, they never\nsaw it--Ninevah was still a 3 days journey from where\nthe fish spat him out. Also, the question of going\nover to the Gentiles or pagans becomes more plain, not\nbeing a result of Isreal's sin in this case, but\nmerely...Mercy? If so, it is a rather 'left-handed'\nmercy--God seems to say, they are stupid folk, but\nhave lots of cattle, so why not save them, or maybe,\nthey are as stupid as cattle...in any case, it doesn't\nseem to be any skin off Isreal's nose. He isn't\nleaving them, merely 'not smiting' someone else. \n\nJonah never really says he hates anyone, or that he is\nill, or that he has something better to do, but his\nattitude of resistance, rebellion and anger is\napparent. He argues with God. He resents God. He pouts\nlike Achilles in his tent. And God can't seem to melt\nand pour it on him that hey, just do what I told you,\nand don't worry who I smite and don't smite. \n\n\nrazorkittee" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2003-01-28T19:22:16+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Sign from the fish's belly", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Razorkittee:\n\n Well, there is a lot more going on in Jonah than appears to modern \nreaders, because we don't read as ancient writers wrote. The sea is the \ngentiles, and the fish is a gentile nation. Israel is in a few years going \nto be tossed into the gentile sea and swallowed by the big fish of Assyria. \nWhile there she will repent and then be cast back up on the land, returning \nfrom exile. Jonah's mission, actually, is to make Assyria into a place that \nwill be more friendly to the Israelites they will conquer and capture in a \nfew decades, for there will be some residual respect for Israel's God.\n The gourd plant also signifies Assyria: springing up rapidly \n(under Jonah's preaching), temporarily providing protection for Israel in \ncaptivity, but destined to collapse, at which point protection for Israel \nalso collapses. God shows the good things that can come to Israel when the \nGentiles convert, and then rebukes him for his stingy attitude.\n Other literary touches include chapter 1, which shows Jonah \nalready down in the sea in the sense of being in \"deep sleep\" in the hold \nof the ship. When he awakens and comes up, the sailors listen to him and \npraise Yahweh. This narrative sequence duplicates by anticipation the \nconversion of Assyria after Jonah comes up from \"deep sleep\" in the sea. \n(\"Deep sleep\" is a specialized noun in Hebrew, used rarely. It means \n\"comatose.\")\n Whether one views the book of Jonah as predictive prophecy or as \nallegory after the fact, the book is an almost incredible literary work. \nNot only are there all the parallels, a few of which I have just mentioned, \nbut each chapter is a neat literary unit styled as a complete and very \nelaborate chiasm (ABCDEFGFEDCBA).\n All of which is interesting, but not necessarily relevant at all \nto what Wolfe has done with his brief allusion. Since there are numerous \naspects to the Jonah story, and what Jesus means by alluding to it, we have \nto try and discern which of these Wolfe intended.\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tami Whitehead", "address": "razorkittee at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2003-01-28T20:42:45+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Sign from the fish's belly", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dear Nutria, \n\nI bow to your learned opinions regarding the Old and\nNew Testament (and I share your interest in gematria,\nbtw, p'raps we can discuss such things another time\nand place). I agree that there is a lot more going on\nin Jonah, as you said. \n\nI am not contesting your interpretation of the symbols\ntherein, which I largely agree with. I only pointed\nout the things I pointed out, for the reasons I gave,\nnamely, that some seemed to be under the impression\nthe sign of the fish was 'seen' by the Ninevites...\n\nrk" } ] } ] }