Subject: (urth) Sign from the fish's belly

From: Andrew Bollen <abollen at internode.on.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 13:36:10 +0000

I asked this:

--- Marble prophesies for Horn regarding the community (at the beginning of
OBW): "The city searches the sky for a sign, but no sign shall it have but
the sign from the fish's belly."  Anybody have an explanation for this?

I think the answer is:

----------------------------------------
[Matthew 16]
The Pharisees and Sadducees came to Jesus and tested him by asking him to
show them a sign from heaven. 2 He replied, 'When evening comes, you say,
`It will be fair weather, for the sky is red,' 3 and in the morning, `Today
it will be stormy, for the sky is red and overcast.' You know how to
interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of
the times. 4 A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a miraculous sign,
but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.'
----------------------------------------

Or repeated:

----------------------------------------
[Matthew 12:38-40]
Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, 'Teacher, we
want to see a miraculous sign from you.' 39 He answered, 'A wicked and
adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it
except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and
three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three
days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
----------------------------------------

So it seems clear that "sign from the fish's belly" = "sign of Jonah". (I
take it that Marble is repeating a phrase from the Chras writings here.)

Googling reveals a whole bunch of varied ravings about the meaning of the
sign of Jonah, but maybe this:

- Jonah's  3 days in the belly of the fish as a prefigurement of Jesus'
death & resurrection. So should we think of Horn's time in the pit on the
island, or should we scrap the 3 days & nights and think of this as a
prophecy of SilkHorn's return to straighten things out in New Viron - Horn
having "died" and been "reborn"?

- After he is disgorged by the whale, Jonah goes to preach repentance to the
heathen city of Nineveh. Suprisingly, all 120,000 of them immediately do so,
covering themselves with ashes & sack-cloth etc. (Jonah is pissed, because
he was hoping Yahweh would do some serious smiting, Nineveh being an enemy
to Israel.) So the imagery is maybe the conversion of all a whole nation to
righteousness, after the "death" and "resurrection" of the prophet.

--

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From: Tami Whitehead <razorkittee at yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 18:29:36 +0000

Just a small aside, and perhaps not even relevant (I
shouldn't even be reading these spoilers, since I have
only now started with the Long Sun set...)

But the theological twist on Jonah is, as you alluded
in your post, a resistance to God's will on Jonah's
part. He heard the call to prophecy to his enemies,
and like many prophets, did not want to go (prophets
have their different reasons, but it is pretty
consistant that they do not want to be prophets when
called, and pretty much try to get out of it when they
can...counterpose this with the Christ, or rather, the
reluctant Messiah outlined by Frazer in Golden Bough,
and you have an interesting twist).

Jonah is called to Ninevah, to save the Ninevites from
God's Destruction. He says, "God must be crazy, I am
not going to help those louts," and boards a boat for
farther Hispaniola or the like, intent on thwarting
God's will, but God sends a storm, and Jonah's boat
will be lost, and he knows why, so he urges his
shipmates to throw him overboard to appease God, which
they do, and the fish swallows him up, only later to
vomit him on the shores of Ninevah...and he was a
changed man so to speak, and preached (reluctantly)
the salvation of the enemy, who repented (to his
chagrin) and were saved. 

Now, not knowing how this fits into the Horn question,
the thing that has struck me deepest on Jonah's story
is exactly the resistance to God's will, and how the
whole thing is supposed to be a prefigurement of
Christ...whose resistance is dimmed somewhat in the
Passion in the Garden of Gethsemene, Lord if it be thy
will let this cup pass from me...I wonder...what if
Christ was more like Jonah, and really thought we
louts deserved to burn, and was finally sacrificed
while still resenting God's call, or the redemption of
us sinners? Then there is the question of the 3 days
and nites, which for Jonah served 2 purposes, to
punish and humble him, and also to put him where he
needed to be to accomplish the task given. For Christ,
the 3 days and nites are purportedly to make him
officially dead, and therefore officially risen, which
is the operative here (the Resurection supercedes the
Sacrifice. Go figure.) If the parallel is followed,
then Christ went to hell for a slightly different
reason...besides just getting the keys to hell. 

Anyhow, back to the fish thing, there are so many
sacred and prophetic fishes in Levantine, Occidental
and Western European myth, I might want another clue
to be sure we had the right angle with Jonah...there
is the old Jewish tradition that a fish eye represents
God's Mercy, being lidless and therefor never closed
to the suffering of man etc...or wise salmon who eat
acorns of wisdom in sacred pools, or flounders who
were bewitched bishops and so forth...the mitre worn
by the Pope is also a fish symbol, but you knew
that...

My, how I rambled...hehehe, just fishing folks! 

razorkittee 

--- Andrew Bollen <abollen at internode.on.net> wrote:
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From: Josh Geller <dclxvi at dclxvi.best.vwh.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 18:41:03 +0000

On Mon, 27 Jan 2003, Tami Whitehead wrote:

> and like many prophets, did not want to go [...]

Mostly for health reasons.

A prophet is normally being instructed to inform people who
are more powerful than he is of something that they don't want
to hear.

.

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From: Tami Whitehead <razorkittee at yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 18:51:10 +0000

Hi Josh, 
Jonah pleaded ill health, but God saw through his
flimsy excuse.(God would have healed his illness, had
that really been the case). Re-read the book of
Jonah...his hate and resentment of the Ninevites is
very apparent as the reason for his rebellion, not his
health, else why go even farther on a more arduous
journey to evade the mission? 

Yes, prophets are normally regular folks sent to say
something to more powerful folks they don't want to
hear...and that is often a reason for not wanting to
prophesy...there is also to common complaint of
prophets "Why me? Leave me alone, let me get on with
my humble life...I never asked to be a mouthpiece for
God." There is something to be said for not wanting to
be sent on Divine Missions, or touched by God, etc.
The books of the Prophets show more than the reaction
of those prophesied to, but also how the Prophets
themselves are brought into line. Check it out. 

razorkittee
urth-request at urth.net

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From: Josh Geller <dclxvi at dclxvi.best.vwh.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 19:05:56 +0000

>>> But the theological twist on Jonah is, as you
>>> alluded in your post, a resistance to God's will
>>> on Jonah's part. He heard the call to prophecy to
>>> his enemies, and like many prophets, did not want
>>>  to go [...]

> Jonah pleaded ill health[....]

This is not exactly what I was getting at.

If you, an ordinary person, go and stand in front of a King and tell
him that he is forbidden from doing something he wants to do (for
instance), or go to an enemy country and stand up in the public
marketplace and stand up and tell all passersby what horrible people
they are, your life is likely to end swiftly and painfully.

.

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From: Chris <rasputin_ at hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 19:00:04 +0000

I think the quotations from Matthew nail down the reference pretty well, 
actually. I am convinced that it's a reference intended to relate Horn to 
Christ in a typically prophetic way; but, come to think of it what I hadn't 
considered was that it would seem to indicate that Marble has a much clearer 
idea of the "big picture" than I'd really considered.

There is room for debate, to me, as to what the significance of the 3 days 
in the belly of the fish- it seems open to interpretation. The way I've 
always looked at it, the purpose was to purify Jonah, making him a tool 
worthy of God... possibly by *means* of the punishment, and not just 
concurrent with it. But what bothers me is that it's the Ninevites who are 
receiving the Sign of Jonah and not Jonah himself, so it seems like looking 
at the whole thing from Jonah's perspective is the wrong angle. As far as 
the Ninevites concerned, it's a matter of some guy who should have been dead 
popping out of an unlikely/impossible place and giving them a message of 
doom and repentance, and, well, that's about all I can think of.

Chris

--
"We have arrived at that point where in every civilization Caesar is killed, 
Alexander catches some complaint and dies; personality is exhausted... and 
the art schools are more intelligent every day."
-- W.B. Yeats

>My, how I rambled...hehehe, just fishing folks!

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From: James Jordan <jbjordan4 at cox.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 20:26:37 +0000

>the sign from the fish's belly."  Anybody have an explanation for this?

....

>righteousness, after the "death" and "resurrection" of the prophet.

         The question is how much of the Jonah//Jesus story does (a) Wolfe 
catch, and (b) Wolfe intend.
         Jonah did not want to go to Nineveh, because of the prophecy in 
Deuteronomy that if God's people provoke Him with "no-gods" (idols), He 
will provoke them by going over to another people ("no-people"). God 
announcement to Jonah was an announcement that He was fed up with Israel, 
and was going to go over to these gentiles. Jonah, as one who loved his own 
people, did not want to see this happen.
         At this point in history, Assyria (Nineveh) was not a great power, 
and not much of a problem to Israel, whose major enemy was Syria 
(Damascus). After a century, Assyria would become the enemy. So careful 
expositors don't usually say that Jonah hated the Assyrians, but that he 
understood that his call to go there was a judgment on his own people. But 
Wolfe may not have studied all this out.
         Jesus' "sign of Jonah" is of a piece with this history. Repeatedly 
He has indicated that His new kingdom will be received by more gentiles 
than Jews. Indeed, His new assistants are no longer shepherds but fishermen 
(in Biblical imagery, Gentiles are associated with the sea, across waters, 
while Israel is associated with land).
         The death-resurrection business is, thus, in part a death to the 
old people and a resurrection to a new one. The old people don't want what 
the prophet brings, but the new people will hear it.
         I suspect Wolfe knows part of this at least. New Viron searches 
the sky for a sign (looks to Silk on the Whorl), but what they receive will 
be something they may well reject, and will be good news to others. To 
whom? Who actually takes the most interest in Silkhorn's "ministry"? New 
Viron or other places? Or even the inhumi, so pathetically desperate to be 
fully human?
         Perhaps closer to the actual events: Horn dies and is resurrected, 
and then goes not to anywhere on Blue but to Green. What does he do on 
Green, but clean out the city there (Nineveh, a gentile city - ?). Does 
this correspond in Lupine thought to evangelism of the city, cleansing it? 
Who benefits from it? (A good question: Who does? I'm not sure I know.)
         Now, in the gospels, the sign of Jonah is a sign to the Jews. That 
is, that the reception of the resurrected Jesus by gentiles is a sign to 
the Jews that they'd better get on board. In what way is Horn's work on 
Green (Nineveh Gentiles) a sign to people on Blue (Jews)? Maybe that if 
they don't shape up,  if they don't learn the wisdom that the 
double-resurrected Silkhorn brings them, they'll wind up like the city on 
Green? Or something else?
         I don't know. But it looks as if this is a deepstructure in the 
narrative that would repay closer attention.
         Someone asked about the "3 days/nights" in the gospels. Start the 
clock with the arrest of Jesus on Thursday night, after he has agreed to 
die, when everyone abandons him. "In the heart of the earth" is a broader 
concept than merely lying in a tomb; note the symbolic use of "heart" in 
the phrase. One has to read Biblical language in terms of the Biblical 
worldview, not in terms of ours. 3 days/nights under the "power" of death.

FWIW

Nutria

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From: Tami Whitehead <razorkittee at yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 21:27:30 +0000

> they are, your life is likely to end swiftly and

Yes, Josh, I got that, and I agree, it is a strong
deterent. I merely point out the other reasons as
well. I merely point out that there is more than one
reason to rebell, as it were. Then there are those
prophets who dig it, and more power to them. God calls
us all in different ways, one could say, and we all
respond to that call differently, according to the
situation, both inwardly and outwardly. But yes,
certainly, fear of death or other reprisal is
definately a valid concern. 

rk
urth-request at urth.net

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From: Andrew Bollen <abollen at internode.on.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 01:38:42 +0000

> people, did not want to see this happen.
[snippety]
 > So careful
> understood that his call to go there was a judgment on his own people.

Thanks, Nutria - I now undertand Jonah's rather odd testiness over God
sparing the Ninevites.

> Who benefits from it? (A good question: Who does? I'm not sure I know.)

I think the whole of Green, and Blue also, benefit from cleansing the city
on Green. Just as a practical matter, it's the inhumi's main center. From
there, they launch their raids on human settlements, using human slaves
bound by the hostage lives of their children etc (as was the case for Auk
and Chenille.) I'd suspect, also, that it may contain technology useul to
humans. (See SilkHorn's comments about the possible rewards from digging in
places like Inclito's house etc.)

Perhaps more importantly, the cleansing is a demonstration of what can be
achieved when humans work together, rather than remaining fragmented.

> Green? Or something else?

This may indeed be the case, but my reading is a little more general &
positive. I think it speaks of a very fast, very comprehensive turn to
righteousness, even by those not of the Vironese faith, all over Blue (and
Green). SilkHorn does indeed achieve this in Gaon (if we believe the
description of Gaon given to Inclito by an ex-mercenary of the Rajan's -
nice place, nobody steals etc etc), in Blanko, in Dorp, and I believe in New
Viron as well. As the conclusion of RTTW, BlazingStar, the best of the New
Vironese oligarchy, is calde. Daisy looks at the departing Whorl through a
telescope, which indicates either a growth in local manufacture (at the
beginning of OBW, New Viron mines lead, but does not grind lenses) and/or
trade (Dorp grinds lenses).

I don't think this last point should be dismissed lightly; I think in
Wolfe's mind, righteousness is congruent with good order, which in turn is
congruent with things like ease of trade & travel. Witness many comments to
this effect throughout SS, and especially the practical significance of the
Dorp "cleansing".

Of course, it would be impossible for a mere unaided human to achieve all
this in a couple of years, and SilkHorn's success is surely due to divine
aid & inspiration. So I would read the Marble's prophecy as foretelling
success, and not so much as a warning. The divine intervention will be in
the form to a hero/judge/prophet divinely inspired with the charisma, wisdom
& efficacy to cause righteousness & inspire the people to its pursuit, and
not in the form of Pas-ish epiphanies, or Mother magic.

--

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From: James Wynn <crushtv at hotpop.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 15:13:45 +0000

Tami Whitehead said:
Now, not knowing how this fits into the Horn question, the thing that has
struck me deepest on Jonah's story is exactly the resistance to God's will,
and how the whole thing is supposed to be a prefigurement of Christ...

Crush offers
Since your speculation was not how this relates Horn, the answer to what
this was all about (I think) was explained by Jesus...

Matthew 12:41 - The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this
generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of
Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas [is] here.

The point is that Nineveh repented, receiving no more "sign" than that a
prophet "arose" from the deeps after having been three days in the belly of
a fish. Jesus said that the aggregate of the current "generation" in
Jerusalem and Galilee would not repent although they received a sign of the
"greatest of prophets" rising from three days in the grave.

There IS a subtle application in this to the "Long Sun/Short Sun" in that
"underwater" is so ubiquitously associated with the "underworld"; that is,
the land of the dead and the source of prophecy.

BTW - Nutria gave a very interesting explanation of "3 days and nights" in
the grave phrase. On the other hand, a more prosaic explanation is that the
Hebrews and Romans did not have a zero at the time. Counting was conducted
in terms of "first, second, third, etc." rather than "one, two, three, etc."
Days were from sunrise to sundown, not 24-hour intervals. So when Herod
slays infants two years and younger it means "infants in their second year"
or "one year and younger." Jesus was in the tomb (late) Friday, Saturday,
and (early) Sunday - "three days"

The phrase "three days and three nights" is an idiom; it doesn't make
logical sense and doesn't have to. Matthew quotes it even though he later
says that Jesus went into the tomb on Friday at dusk and came out on Sunday
at sunrise. I remember the reaction of some Latino children to the phrase
"when the alarm goes off." They thought it was very funny. "The alarm
doesn't 'go off', it 'goes on'."

Crush

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From: James Jordan <jbjordan4 at cox.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 15:45:58 +0000

>the land of the dead and the source of prophecy.

Hmm, looking back at the actual statement:

"The city searches the sky for a sign, but no sign shall it have but
the sign from the fish's belly."

Note the opposition of searching the sky and true sign from the sea. Maybe 
after all Wolfe is not pointing very much to Jonah and Jesus but to 
Seawrack. Is the Mother the fish? Is Seawrack's loyalty to Silkhorn the 
sign? And the fact that she can fall back into the sea if she is separated 
from this messiah?
         Or, could this be another angle in a multi-layered prophecy?

Nutria

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From: Tami Whitehead <razorkittee at yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 18:03:42 +0000

> > and was going to go over to these gentiles. Jonah,
> as one who loved his
> own

Thanks Nutria. In re-reading the Book of Jonah,
however, I am still of the mind that Jonah just had a
bad attitude, and wasn't so much concerned with the
prophecy of Deuteronomy. It is an interesting point
you make however, and indeed raises some very
important points concerning Gentile Christianity, and
the availability of redemption to non-Hebrews.
However, if the whole Jonah question is to be followed
through, and if this is indeed a semi-serious 'clue'
to some obscure goings on in a series I haven't read
yet(wink)I point out the following, as it may have a
bearing, and again, I leave it to those who more
qualified to discuss to the matter:

The Ninevites did not see Jonah come from the fish.
The fish spat him out, the Lord spoke to him again,
and he went to the city saying it would fall in 40
days, and *that* was why the King ordered the city to
fast and repent. 

*This* (it says in the Book) really pissed Jonah off,
and he went to pout in a little booth outside the
city, to wait and watch for God to smite them after
all, and would rather die. God sent a gourd to cover
him, which made him glad, then God sent a worm to
smite the gourd, which made Jonah want to die again.
(Maybe Prozac would have helped, hehehe). 

So, at this point, and it is a very short book, God
tells Jonah, Why be angry about the gourd, and Jonah
says he is right to be angry about it. God reminds
Jonah he didn't make the gourd, and it lived only a
short time, and compares it to the Ninevites "Should
not I spare the Ninevah, that great city, wherein
there are more than sixscore thousand who do not know
their right hand from their left, and also much
cattle?" 

And so ends the book of Jonah, rather like a GW book,
abruptly, and not at all to our satisfaction, let
alone Jonah's. 

I only point these things out becuase there seems to
be much hinging on the sign from the fish, but there
was no sign for the Ninevites of a fish, they never
saw it--Ninevah was still a 3 days journey from where
the fish spat him out. Also, the question of going
over to the Gentiles or pagans becomes more plain, not
being a result of Isreal's sin in this case, but
merely...Mercy? If so, it is a rather 'left-handed'
mercy--God seems to say, they are stupid folk, but
have lots of cattle, so why not save them, or maybe,
they are as stupid as cattle...in any case, it doesn't
seem to be any skin off Isreal's nose. He isn't
leaving them, merely 'not smiting' someone else. 

Jonah never really says he hates anyone, or that he is
ill, or that he has something better to do, but his
attitude of resistance, rebellion and anger is
apparent. He argues with God. He resents God. He pouts
like Achilles in his tent. And God can't seem to melt
and pour it on him that hey, just do what I told you,
and don't worry who I smite and don't smite. 

razorkittee

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From: James Jordan <jbjordan4 at cox.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 19:22:16 +0000

Well, there is a lot more going on in Jonah than appears to modern 
readers, because we don't read as ancient writers wrote. The sea is the 
gentiles, and the fish is a gentile nation. Israel is in a few years going 
to be tossed into the gentile sea and swallowed by the big fish of Assyria. 
While there she will repent and then be cast back up on the land, returning 
from exile. Jonah's mission, actually, is to make Assyria into a place that 
will be more friendly to the Israelites they will conquer and capture in a 
few decades, for there will be some residual respect for Israel's God.
         The gourd plant also signifies Assyria: springing up rapidly 
(under Jonah's preaching), temporarily providing protection for Israel in 
captivity, but destined to collapse, at which  point protection for Israel 
also collapses. God shows the good things that can come to Israel when the 
Gentiles convert, and then rebukes him for his stingy attitude.
         Other literary touches include chapter 1, which shows Jonah 
already down in the sea in the sense of being in "deep sleep" in the hold 
of the ship. When he awakens and comes up,  the sailors listen to him and 
praise Yahweh. This narrative sequence duplicates by anticipation the 
conversion of Assyria after Jonah comes up from "deep sleep" in the sea. 
("Deep sleep" is a specialized noun in Hebrew, used rarely. It means 
"comatose.")
         Whether one views the book of Jonah as predictive prophecy or as 
allegory after the fact, the book is an almost incredible literary work. 
Not only are there all the parallels, a few of which I have just mentioned, 
but each chapter is a neat literary unit styled as a complete and very 
elaborate chiasm (ABCDEFGFEDCBA).
         All of which is interesting, but not necessarily relevant at all 
to what Wolfe has done with his brief allusion. Since there are numerous 
aspects to the Jonah story, and what Jesus means by alluding to it, we have 
to try and discern which of these Wolfe intended.

Nutria

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From: Tami Whitehead <razorkittee at yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 20:42:45 +0000

Dear Nutria, 

I bow to your learned opinions regarding the Old and
New Testament (and I share your interest in gematria,
btw, p'raps we can discuss such things another time
and place).  I agree that there is a lot more going on
in Jonah, as you said. 

I am not contesting your interpretation of the symbols
therein, which I largely agree with. I only pointed
out the things I pointed out, for the reasons I gave,
namely, that some seemed to be under the impression
the sign of the fish was 'seen' by the Ninevites...

rk

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