{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3825", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3825, "subject": "DOORS: men and goddess", "messages": 6, "voices": 6, "first": "2003-01-31T08:31:42+00:00", "last": "2003-02-03T22:43:02+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2003-01-31T08:31:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) DOORS: men and goddess", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "mantis wrote:\nSo in Otherworld most men die between the age of 14 and 21, let's say. Any\nman who survives beyond these years is either asexual or possesses an iron\nwill or is simply too frightened. And the breeding population isn't a\nminority, it is just that the men are winnowed out so early that adult men\nare a numerical minority." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You would think so, but if you look back at the total of Otherworld\nindividuals noted by Green you'll find that the majority are males.\n(Red-faced man on street, clerk in doll hospital, mounted policeman, men in\nmental ward, Sheng, Pille, conspirators, W.F., boxers, cop and firemen after\nexplosion, hotel clerk and bellboy, Mama's sons, Klamm's bodyguards, prop\nman at theater, both taxi drivers, etc. And most of the females Green noted\nwere in traditional female jobs--nurses, waitresses, clerks, hairdresser. I\ndon't know what this means for Otherworld society, but there it is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The ice queen, ah. My view of her is changing . . . today I see her, and\nall the doll-attackers as following a model of the goddess which just\nhappens to be wrong, according to the goddess herself. That is to say: the\nice queen is enacting the behavior of Cybele, and the stained glass that\nRoy was bugged by (sorry Roy, the short answer was \"Love-goddess-with-spear\nis far more ancient than Greek myths -- it is more like Ishtar and those\nother fierce Middle Eastern goddesses of Love & War\") is an example of the\nwrong model being enshrined. Because Cybele loved Attis and became\ninsanely jealous when he fell in love with a mortal princess, so she caused\nhis insanity, which made him cut himself: but in TAD Lara says this was all\na mistake and misunderstood, which I take to mean that Lara is more like\nAphrodite, and the Otherworld church is focused on Cybele." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I dunno. Fanny's excitement is very odd to me . . . it marks her, somehow,\nbut as what? A visitor, maybe. Or an Aphrodite devotee in a world of\nCybele worshipers. (Ooops, these two options aren't that different.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right; the two are one. If we *must* peg TAD to THE WHITE GODDESS (a point\nI'm not willing to concede; Wolfe has admitted to not even finishing reading\nstories/books he was passing judgement on for some contest; I find the\nprospect of him plodding through such a tiresome tome of tortured\nscholarship for so little reward to be incredible), then we must look at the\nlarger picture of the Goddess as Graves (and his ilk, such as dear old Joe\nCampbell ) saw her. From virginal nymph to hideous crone and every stage\nin between, she is *the* goddess. There's only one. If Wolfe didn't write\nTAD with that in mind, then he wasn't taking his cues from Graves.\n\nChapter XXXIV of Frazer's THE GOLDEN BOUGH (abridged, one-volume edition) is\ninstructive. There may be found, in the Attis rituals, music such as that\nnoted by Green at the parade, as well as mention of the everGreen pine-tree,\nand even priests of Cybele with \"little images suspended on their breasts\",\nmindful of Sheng's root. Green was at the tail-end of the parade; who knows\nwhat had gone before?\n\nGreen knew only the Aphrodite persona of Lara. She showed signs of the\nbitch-goddess, and she hinted at her darker side at lunch, but Green was\neither oblivious or hadn't thought it through. Lora *Master*man, indeed. She\nseems to have cared even more for Captain Billy than Green, yet . . .\n\n \"How long did you stay with him?\"\n \"Until he sailed. By that time I had fallen ill and had to be left\nbehind.\" (279)\n\nWolfe says it only that one time. Goddesses don't get sick, unless it's\n'morning sickness'.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2003-01-31T17:25:14+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) DOORS: men and goddess", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy Lackey wrote:\nYou would think so, but if you look back at the total of Otherworld\nindividuals noted by Green you'll find that the majority are males.\n(Red-faced man on street, clerk in doll hospital, mounted policeman, men in\nmental ward, Sheng, Pille, conspirators, W.F., boxers, cop and firemen after\nexplosion, hotel clerk and bellboy, Mama's sons, Klamm's bodyguards, prop\nman at theater, both taxi drivers, etc. And most of the females Green noted\nwere in traditional female jobs--nurses, waitresses, clerks, hairdresser. I\ndon't know what this means for Otherworld society, but there it is." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yep. If this is \"The Planet of the Apes,\" then where are all the \"apes\"?!\nCould it be that the capital city of the nation has a high concentration of\na numerical minority?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Roy quoted me and wrote:\nI dunno. Fanny's excitement is very odd to me . . . it marks her, somehow,\nbut as what? A visitor, maybe. Or an Aphrodite devotee in a world of\nCybele worshipers. (Ooops, these two options aren't that different.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Right; the two are one." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oops, I was trying to avoid that misreading! I meant that \"a Visitor\" and\n\"an Aphrodite worshipper\" would be virtually identical in the hypothetical\nCybele-world.\n\nThat Cybele and Aphrodite are the same is a different statement which I'll\naddress next." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If we *must* peg TAD to THE WHITE GODDESS (a point\nI'm not willing to concede; Wolfe has admitted to not even finishing reading\nstories/books he was passing judgement on for some contest; I find the\nprospect of him plodding through such a tiresome tome of tortured\nscholarship for so little reward to be incredible), then we must look at the\nlarger picture of the Goddess as Graves (and his ilk, such as dear old Joe\nCampbell ) saw her. From virginal nymph to hideous crone and every stage\nin between, she is *the* goddess. There's only one. If Wolfe didn't write\nTAD with that in mind, then he wasn't taking his cues from Graves." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Graves often shows three, and they usually come in this order:\n1) white goddess (crecent moon waxing) the love goddess\n2) red goddess (full moon) the mother goddess\n3) black goddess (new moon) the death and prophesy goddess\n\nGreen himself intuits three in chapter 7, titled \"Lara, Tina, and Marcella\":\n1) dark scent amber, sultry, spice: Marcella (light red hair)\n2) daring, seductive, ravishing: Lara (dark red hair)\n3) light scent ripe pears and apples, a pink flower: Tina (dark red hair)\n\nIt might just be my own idiosyncracy, but I do not see the Graves list and\nthe Green list lining up: in the Green list I do not see a mother or a\ncrone, I only see the white goddess in three aspects (from oldest to\nyoungest). If you want to say that Tina is virginal nymph and Marcella is\nblack goddess of deathland, I guess you can do that, but then you'd be\ngoing along with my Overwood = Deathland thing. (And I find it hard to\nconsider Lara as a red goddess, despite her hair color. )\n\nLara has all sorts of pseudonyms, and she doesn't flinch when Green says\nshe is Marcella and she is Tina (but Tina flinches). Yet Lara claims to be\nnot Cybele as we know Cybele.\n\nMaybe it is just me, but I see a rather large difference between a Love\nGoddess (Aphrodite) and a Fertility Goddess (Cybele), even as I recognize\nthat both lend themselves to orgiastic celebrations. If the focus is on\nBabies, then imho she is a Mother Goddess (a red goddess), and what we see\nof Otherworld is built upon babies and Mother Goddess and not Love.\n\nSince Wolfe seems to have an interest in battles between different\ngoddesses, it is perhaps too easy for me to think along these lines." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Chapter XXXIV of Frazer's THE GOLDEN BOUGH (abridged, one-volume edition) is\ninstructive. There may be found, in the Attis rituals, music such as that\nnoted by Green at the parade, as well as mention of the everGreen pine-tree,\nand even priests of Cybele with \"little images suspended on their breasts\",\nmindful of Sheng's root. Green was at the tail-end of the parade; who knows\nwhat had gone before?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmmmm. To anticipate: you mean that the parade started off with the black\ngoddess, then had the red goddess, and finally the snow-white goddess?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Green knew only the Aphrodite persona of Lara. She showed signs of the\nbitch-goddess, and she hinted at her darker side at lunch, but Green was\neither oblivious or hadn't thought it through. Lora *Master*man, indeed. She\nseems to have cared even more for Captain Billy than Green, yet . . .\n\n \"How long did you stay with him?\"\n \"Until he sailed. By that time I had fallen ill and had to be left\nbehind.\" (279)\n\nWolfe says it only that one time. Goddesses don't get sick, unless it's\n'morning sickness'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A few points. Even while I argue above there is a difference between such\nsimilar goddesses as Cybele and Aphrodite, still I want no one to\nmistakenly think that I'm claiming Aphrodite is infertile or a pre-mother\n-- she has had children (Eros/Cupid and Hermaphrodite being only two), but\nthat detail did not/does not change her sphere from Love to Motherhood or\nFertility. So Lara could have been pregnant by Captain Billy and in my\nbook she would still be Aphrodite, not Cybele, as I'm making the\ndistinction between them.\n\nFWIW I don't think that Lara was really sick. The text is pretty clear\nabout how Lara works -- she finds the guy, she shows him a wild time, she\nleaves him \"sad and alone on the cold hill side\" (to paraphrase \"La Belle\nDame sans Merci\"). What happens next is up to the man: he can \"pine\" away\nand die of anguish (like Attis, like the nameless knight of \"La Belle\nDame,\" and I presume like Captain Billy), or he can follow Lara into the\ndeadly hedge maze, a labyrinth in which she always dances a few steps ahead.\n\nWhen Lara says she didn't want Attis to die, I take it as (possibly)\nmeaning not that she wanted him to be immortal (i.e., he would never die),\nbut rather she did not want him to follow her into the deadly maze (where\nhe would die sooner in life than if he stayed on Earth), so she\npurposefully did not give him the hints on how to find the doors. Then he\ncut himself and she was upset.\n\n=mantis=\n\n\nSirius Fiction\nbooklets on Gene Wolfe, John Crowley\nhttp://www.siriusfiction.com/\n\neBay Auctions\nhttp://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=mr.sirius" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "cilluff1 at optonline.net", "address": "cilluff1 at optonline.net" }, "date": "2003-01-31T17:39:02+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) DOORS: men and goddess", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mantis postulated about Roy Lackey's observation that Green met mostly men\nin Otherworld:\n\n<<", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2003-02-01T03:35:10+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) DOORS: men and goddess", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From:\n\"Roy C. Lackey\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "mantis wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So in Otherworld most men die between the age of 14 and 21, let's say. Any\nman who survives beyond these years is either asexual or possesses an iron\nwill or is simply too frightened. And the breeding population isn't a\nminority, it is just that the men are winnowed out so early that adult men\nare a numerical minority." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You would think so, but if you look back at the total of Otherworld\nindividuals noted by Green you'll find that the majority are males.\n(Red-faced man on street, clerk in doll hospital, mounted policeman, men in\nmental ward, Sheng, Pille, conspirators, W.F., boxers, cop and firemen after\nexplosion, hotel clerk and bellboy, Mama's sons, Klamm's bodyguards, prop\nman at theater, both taxi drivers, etc. And most of the females Green noted\nwere in traditional female jobs--nurses, waitresses, clerks, hairdresser. I\ndon't know what this means for Otherworld society, but there it is." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There may be more reproductional derrangements in the Otherworld than is \nspelled out.\nIt's possible that many men and women are infertile or lacking in \nlibido, some or\nall of the time, or perhaps all of either sex could be \"ready\" only for \na small\nperiod of time, or go through a period of unreadiness and then are ready \nfrom then on.\nThis would explain there being numerous men and women present in \nnon-reproductive roles,\nthe parade as a means of hooking up newly ready women with newly ready \nmen, and the dolls as kind of coaxer for boys who are slow in showing \nsigns of getting ready, or as a secondary service; if they can't serve \nas a father, they can serve the Goddess. It's also possible that a \nsingle man can fertilize multiple women; either by artificial \ninsemination, dividng the single sample, or, since according to the \nplay, the man doesn't die immediately, by multiple ejaculations before \ndeath. The dying state doesn't seem erotically conducive, but \nelectroejaculation is a possibility...." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson\nHow Am I Posting? 1-800-555-6789\n\"If your SecOp can see you, so can the enemy.\" -Cpt Law\n\n\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tami Whitehead", "address": "razorkittee at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2003-02-01T05:50:38+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) DOORS: men and goddess", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I said before, after reading Doors, I just sat and\nscratched my head for several days. It took 3 Star\nTrek novellas to purge my grey matter and bring me\nback to sense of normalcy (an entirely subjective\nstate for me, and if I seek it, then I am truly sick\n)...be that as it may...\n\nSex without women in This World usually leads to\nvarying stages of homosexual behavior. Why not in\nOtherworld? (And Wolfe is not above using homosexual\nbehavior in his tales, as in Latro's little faun boy\nthat the Spartan general was hot for) Guys may have to\nadapt, but they rarely go without...\n\nAnd what about masturbation? If it were me, and my\nlife were on the line, I think I could get by quite\nwell, er, manually. \n\nI think there is something else going on. I think it\nhas less to do with ejaculation and more to do with\nactual congress, so to speak, with the Goddess or her\nhandmaidens. Someone else suggested I think that the\nAct was more to do with giving oneself to the Goddess\nmuch as Attis did, with knowledge of what would be\nrequired in return, and with the Goddess pitying him\neven though she still required it (ok, chicks are\nweird, and I can say that because I am a chick, and\nalways pleased when men are willing to die to sleep\nwith me. I am just not that strict in enforcing it\nThis is just a guess. But I do think it\nhas more to do with the \"giving\" of the sacrifice to\nthe Goddess than having sex with regular women, sorta.\nThen again, I am just guessing. I like to think I\nunderstand about the Goddess Consuming, but then\nagain...\n\nTami" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- Jeff Wilson wrote:\nFrom:\n\"Roy C. Lackey\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "mantis wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "So in Otherworld most men die between the age of\n14 and 21, let's say. Any\nman who survives beyond these years is either\nasexual or possesses an iron\nwill or is simply too frightened. And the\nbreeding population isn't a\nminority, it is just that the men are winnowed out\nso early that adult men\nare a numerical minority." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You would think so, but if you look back at the\ntotal of Otherworld\nindividuals noted by Green you'll find that the\nmajority are males.\n(Red-faced man on street, clerk in doll hospital,\nmounted policeman, men in\nmental ward, Sheng, Pille, conspirators, W.F.,\nboxers, cop and firemen after\nexplosion, hotel clerk and bellboy, Mama's sons,\nKlamm's bodyguards, prop\nman at theater, both taxi drivers, etc. And most\nof the females Green noted\nwere in traditional female jobs--nurses,\nwaitresses, clerks, hairdresser. I\ndon't know what this means for Otherworld society,\nbut there it is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There may be more reproductional derrangements in\nthe Otherworld than is \nspelled out.\nIt's possible that many men and women are infertile\nor lacking in \nlibido, some or\nall of the time, or perhaps all of either sex could\nbe \"ready\" only for \na small\nperiod of time, or go through a period of\nunreadiness and then are ready \nfrom then on.\nThis would explain there being numerous men and\nwomen present in \nnon-reproductive roles,\nthe parade as a means of hooking up newly ready\nwomen with newly ready \nmen, and the dolls as kind of coaxer for boys who\nare slow in showing \nsigns of getting ready, or as a secondary service;\nif they can't serve \nas a father, they can serve the Goddess. It's also\npossible that a \nsingle man can fertilize multiple women; either by\nartificial \ninsemination, dividng the single sample, or, since\naccording to the \nplay, the man doesn't die immediately, by multiple\nejaculations before \ndeath. The dying state doesn't seem erotically\nconducive, but \nelectroejaculation is a possibility....\n\n\n-- \nJeff Wilson\nHow Am I Posting? 1-800-555-6789\n\"If your SecOp can see you, so can the enemy.\" -Cpt\nLaw\n\n\n\n-- \nhttp://www.urth.net/\nTo unsubscribe: send \"unsubscribe\" to" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "urth-request at urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-02-03T22:43:02+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) DOORS: men and goddess", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 1/31/03 2:31 AM, Roy C. Lackey at rclackey at stic.net wrote:\nYou would think so, but if you look back at the total of Otherworld\nindividuals noted by Green you'll find that the majority are males.\n(Red-faced man on street, clerk in doll hospital, mounted policeman, men in\nmental ward, Sheng, Pille, conspirators, W.F., boxers, cop and firemen after\nexplosion, hotel clerk and bellboy, Mama's sons, Klamm's bodyguards, prop\nman at theater, both taxi drivers, etc. And most of the females Green noted\nwere in traditional female jobs--nurses, waitresses, clerks, hairdresser. I\ndon't know what this means for Otherworld society, but there it is." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's odd, but there are some considerations which make it more plausible.\nFor one thing, for every dead father there's a woman who is a mother, and\nprobably a mother with one or more young children. So a lot of women are\npresumably at home with their children. For another, Fanny tells Green:\n\"Nature ... gave you men more strenth than most women, and what's much more\nimportant, more drive, more ambition.\" (151) I imagine Wolfe would agree\nwith this sentiment. And then the bits of Otherworld we see through Green's\neyes are hardly representative of Otherworld society as a whole: a\npsychiatric ward, a boxing arena, a theater where subversive plays are\nperformed, and various marginal enterprises. (As I remarked before, we\nhardly see any children, though there must be loads of them.)\n\nI suspect that Wolfe's own attitudes towards women also have something to do\nwith their relative absence.\n\n--Adam" } ] } ] }