# 5HoC + The Long Sun

*The Urth list — 3 messages, 2 voices, 31 Jan 2003*

<https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3827>

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### James Wynn
*31 Jan 2003, 17:16*

I've been recently been re-reading the Fifth Head of Cerberus. I've been
intrigued by the number of parallels between it and The Long Sun/Short Sun.
I know this has been vaguely noted here before, but here's a starting list
of the particulars I've noticed. I'm not saying TFHoC is in TBotLS universe
(except the one which is Wolfe's mind) but that TBotLS, in a sense, the
story readdressed.
I suspect the reason David Hartwell suggested the title for "The Long Sun"
to be "Starcrosser's Landing" is that he saw the parallels as well.

1.
Spiral staircase in the library and "The Other Eye"
=
The Whorl and whorl imagery
Note: This similarity could have something to do with concurrent themes
relating to genetics, but of course, LS/SS also incorporate sun imagery and
the idea of a hopeless trap (hmmm... maybe some of this 'hopeless trap'
stuff in Fifth Head as well)

2.
The tall library itself so like a ship with a spiral staircase (a whorl) in
the center with a sunbeam "axis", and the book therein entitled "The Mile
Long Spaceship"
=
The league-upon-league-long spaceship named "The Whorl" with a beam of light
for an axis.

3.
Abos (aliens) have notably white skin (incidentally, has anyone already
pointed out that Phaedria also is noted for her white skin?)
=
Inhumi have such white skin that Quetzal must wear makeup to cover it.

4.
Aliens that cannot help imitating and taking on human identity.

5.
Mr. Million is a Ten Nine Unbound Simulator
=
Chems are also "unbound" simulators (OK I know this one is weak, but....)

6.
Mr. Million's face is the scanned image and mind of a man long dead. He is,
in a sense (as are all the heirs of Cave Canem), a ghost. =
He is basically a walking Sacred Window, an interface to the "god" of Cave
Canem.

7.
The dead influencing/dominating the living (Persephone-like).
In the Whorl and Cave Canem are ruled by such "dead men." This is especially
true if one believes as I do that Mr. Million is the one running things and
that Maitre and #5 are simultaneously the subjects of **his** experiment.

8.
Heavily founded on themes and concepts of imitation and identity.

9.
Intelligent Trees

10.
Twin planets that are green and blue
(twin planets are a natural motif for the shared themes of imitation and
identity but why green and blue?)

11.
Cave Canem, a whorehouse whose nickname means 'Beware of the Dog' and run by
a 'pack' of Wolfs
=
Orchid's in a city built over a labyrinth filled with vicious dog-monsters
that are identified by the soldiers as the 'real' gods of the Whorl.

12.
An undercurrent theme from the book of Revelation.

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### cilluff1 at optonline.net
*31 Jan 2003, 21:52 · follows James Wynn*

James Wynn wrote:

<>
 
I recently read it for the first time, after having already reading the
Urth/LS/SS cycle, and thought that FHOC seemed like a "dry run" for the
Urth cycle.  Of course, many of parallel themes (the nature of identity is
a biggie) that they share appear in many Wolfe works, so his predilicition
to explore such themes could account for it, but, as you pointed out, there
are too many factual similarities simply to chalk it up to "well, Wolfe
writes about identity a lot."  I don't think they are the same fictional
universe per se, but that the Urth cycle seems to be a full fleshed-out
treatment of the ideas (both philosophical and plot-wise) that Wolfe
utilizes in FH.

<<<Abos (aliens) have notably white skin (incidentally, has anyone already
pointed out that Phaedria also is noted for her white skin?)
=
Inhumi have such white skin that Quetzal must wear makeup to cover it.>>>

Not to deny your parallel, but to expand on it, but the parallel that
struck me was the similarity between the "Are the colonists of St. C/St. A
really Abos but we have forgotten" line of FH and the "are the Neighbors
really evolved or somehow dualized humans/is Blue or Green really Urth"
debate. 

<<<Mr. Million is a Ten Nine Unbound Simulator
=
Chems are also "unbound" simulators (OK I know this one is weak, but....)>>

I actually really like that one, and it does add to the feeling that St.
Croix/St. Anne are some of the planets early colonized in the first wave
out from earth/urth.

<<Mr. Million's face is the scanned image and mind of a man long dead. He
is,
in a sense (as are all the heirs of Cave Canem), a ghost. =
He is basically a walking Sacred Window, an interface to the "god" of Cave
Canem.>>

This definitely foreshaddows the scanning of Typhon & Co. and Silk.  This
is a great example (as are the twin planets, the pre-chems) of why I think
Wolfe had these great ideas for a story that he used in FH and which he
then fully explored in the Urth cycle.  

<<The dead influencing/dominating the living (Persephone-like).
In the Whorl and Cave Canem are ruled by such "dead men." This is especially
true if one believes as I do that Mr. Million is the one running things and
that Maitre and #5 are simultaneously the subjects of **his** experiment.>>

That's a great take on Mr. Million.  You also then beg the question, what
does it mean to be alive, or to die?  Is Mr. Million the same "person,"
does he survive, i.e., still live, post-surgery, or does he die, to be
replaced by something else with his memory?  The same can be asked of
Severian, Horn, and Silk.    

<<<11.
Cave Canem, a whorehouse whose nickname means 'Beware of the Dog' and run by
a 'pack' of Wolfs
=
Orchid's in a city built over a labyrinth filled with vicious dog-monsters
that are identified by the soldiers as the 'real' gods of the Whorl.>>

FWIW, here are a few others I thought of.  The machines that guard the
prison camps foreshadow the Taluses of the LS.  The inquisitors of Dr.
Marsch seem like the Ayuntamiento.  And Mr. Million foreshadow's Lemur &
Co., humans who transplant their minds into machines, as distinguished from
"mere" chems, whose identities are created by man.

The plot devices and metaphysical questions that the two works share in
common definitely make me think that FH is Wolfe's first run at these ideas
and that the LS/SS books are his full exposition.

- Shell 

---

### James Wynn
*04 Feb 2003, 15:01 · follows cilluff1 at optonline.net*

Shell responded to Crush:
Of course, many of parallel themes (the nature of identity is
a biggie) that they share appear in many Wolfe works, so his predilection
to explore such themes could account for it, but, as you pointed out, there
are too many factual similarities simply to chalk it up to "well, Wolfe
writes about identity a lot."

Crush answers:
But LS/SS and FH share more than the theme of identity, but also
**imitation**. I think the similarities might give us some clues about what
mages are important to Wolfe when working with such a theme (although, for
the most part I don't understand what they are).


Crush also said:
<<The dead influencing/dominating the living (Persephone-like).
In the Whorl and Cave Canem are ruled by such "dead men." This is especially
true if one believes as I do that Mr. Million is the one running things and
that Maitre and #5 are simultaneously the subjects of **his** experiment.>>

Shell responded:
That's a great take on Mr. Million.  You also then beg the question, what
does it mean to be alive, or to die?  Is Mr. Million the same "person,"
does he survive, i.e., still live, post-surgery, or does he die, to be
replaced by something else with his memory?  The same can be asked of
Severian, Horn, and Silk.

Crush answers:
Well  that's more on the whole identity theme isn't it? Marsch insists on
addressing Maitre and #5 as though they are one person, which he asserts
they are: "one personality". So Maitre doesn't exactly "die" when #5 kills
him. The Original may have recognized this since his main conscious purpose
seems to have been immortality.

Since you appreciate my "take", I'll explain why I believe it.
1. It seems rather coincidental to me that Tante Jeanine would die (to the
ultimate advantage of #5) within a couple years of inheriting Cave Canem.

2. In #5's dream Mr. Million is steering the ship.

3. In #5's dream he warns Tante Jeanine to "stay away" from Mr. Million
because he might "hurt" her.


Shell adds:
FWIW, here are a few others I thought of.  The machines that guard the
prison camps foreshadow the Taluses of the LS.  The inquisitors of Dr.
Marsch seem like the Ayuntamiento.  And Mr. Million foreshadow's Lemur &
Co., humans who transplant their minds into machines, as distinguished from
"mere" chems, whose identities are created by man.

Crush piles on:
Nice. Here are some more:
1. Sol is in the Lizard's Tail constellation.
   =
   Horn and Nettle settle on the "tail of Lizard Island.

2. V.R.T. is constantly "practicing his hand" in his journal.
   =
   The chem at the Sun St. mantaeon  does the same.

3. The Shadow Child tells Sandwalker that the abos were originally "mostly
long"
   (this could mean they were like the trees but I don't think so. I think
they were like the giant red luminous worms Dr. Marsch reports seeing)
   =
Of course LS/SS has serpentine aliens.

-- Crush.

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