{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3837", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3837, "subject": "DOORS: perhaps the last note thereon, this round", "messages": 6, "voices": 4, "first": "2003-02-07T22:27:10+00:00", "last": "2003-02-09T09:14:00+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2003-02-07T22:27:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) DOORS: perhaps the last note thereon, this round", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "LEUCOTHEA\nOne of Lara's names is \"Leucothea Fitzhugh Hurst\" (276).\n\n\"The most warlike of the remaining Pelasgians were the Centaurs of\nMagnesia, whose clan totems included the wryneck and mountain lion. They\nalso worshipped the horse . . . The Centaurs' mother goddess was called, in\nGreek, Leucothea, 'the White Goddess' . . . she had also become the\n'mother' of Melicertes, or Hercules Melkarth, the god of earlier\nsemi-Semitic invaders\" (THE WHITE GODDESS, pb., p. 52).\n\nTINA\nWhile \"Tina\" sounds like a pure diminutive (fitting her tiny size), it also\nsounds to me like it could be a fragment of something like \"(Acca)\nLarentia,\" the foster mother of two twins (with a wolf connection in there,\ntoo). Thus \"Lare-ntia\" becomes Lara and Tina.\n\nOTOH, the real Tina of myth is something else entirely: an Etruscan thunder\ngod (p. 187).\n\nTHE MYTHIC PATTERN\nChapter 22 outlines religious stages, paraphrased here:\n\nStage 1: no \"father,\" only rival \"twins\" for the love of the goddess. One\nis Star and the other is Serpent.\n\nStage 1.5: with the invention of fatherhood, men begin to take many of the\nroles previously denied them due to gender.\n\nStage 2: enter Thunder-child, who kills the twins (or castrates/slumbers\nthe Star, usually kills the Serpent).\n\nWith this in mind, if North really is the Thunder-child I've been thinking\nhe is, then yep, he wants to kill Klamm and Green, remake the world in the\nOlympian mode.\n\nNew thought: Are any Visitors accidental? Upon reflection, it seems like\nall of them are \"invitation only\" (with the addition that some of Lara's\nlovers might not have been given the invite at all, e.g., Attis and the\nKnight); but if this is true, then North was loved and invited, too, back\nin 1972. Which certainly puts his situation in a straightforward context.\nTo me it would somewhat soften his \"Hitler in Oz\" feel.\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Bollen", "address": "abollen at internode.on.net" }, "date": "2003-02-08T00:43:30+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) DOORS: perhaps the last note thereon, this round", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mantis wrote:\nLEUCOTHEA\nOne of Lara's names is \"Leucothea Fitzhugh Hurst\" (276).\n\n\"The most warlike of the remaining Pelasgians were the Centaurs of\nMagnesia, whose clan totems included the wryneck and mountain lion. They\nalso worshipped the horse . . . The Centaurs' mother goddess was called,\nin\nGreek, Leucothea, 'the White Goddess' . . . she had also become the\n'mother' of Melicertes, or Hercules Melkarth, the god of earlier\nsemi-Semitic invaders\" (THE WHITE GODDESS, pb., p. 52)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Leucothea\" was also the name of one of the Sirens. I've always thought that\nit would have been a good name for Seawrack." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2003-02-08T08:04:13+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) DOORS: perhaps the last note thereon, this round", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "mantis wrote:\nTHE MYTHIC PATTERN\nChapter 22 outlines religious stages, paraphrased here:\n\nStage 1: no \"father,\" only rival \"twins\" for the love of the goddess. One\nis Star and the other is Serpent.\n\nStage 1.5: with the invention of fatherhood, men begin to take many of the\nroles previously denied them due to gender.\n\nStage 2: enter Thunder-child, who kills the twins (or castrates/slumbers\nthe Star, usually kills the Serpent).\n\nWith this in mind, if North really is the Thunder-child I've been thinking\nhe is, then yep, he wants to kill Klamm and Green, remake the world in the\nOlympian mode." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In an earlier post you thought North wanted to kill Lara. (He had his\nchance, btw, in the locker room before the big boxing match. He was armed.)\nRivals in such mythological struggles usually battle one another for the\naffection/possession of the goddess. I don't get the impression that North\nwas interested in Lara, one way or the other. Liddy, and by extension North,\nmay be off-center ideologically, but he is intelligent and practical.\nReaching the summit of political power would not alter biological fact. Men\nmay have the _cojones_ in Otherworld, but if they use them they die. This is\nthe emasculation ritual of the priests of Attis writ large." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "New thought: Are any Visitors accidental? Upon reflection, it seems like\nall of them are \"invitation only\" (with the addition that some of Lara's\nlovers might not have been given the invite at all, e.g., Attis and the\nKnight); but if this is true, then North was loved and invited, too, back\nin 1972. Which certainly puts his situation in a straightforward context.\nTo me it would somewhat soften his \"Hitler in Oz\" feel." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Green's first passage seemed accidental to me; he didn't know he had done\nit, and Lara certainly didn't invite him. His second, brief, crossover (in\nthe arcade) was accidental. I don't think Lara invited _any_ of her lovers\nto Otherworld, for the reasons she gave Green at lunch. The secret\ngovernment policy of institutionalizing Visitors seems to indicate they were\nundesirable aliens.\n\nNorth is a problem either way. If he had been Lara's lover, I find no hint\nof it from either of them. If he had loved the Goddess, why would he have\nbeen tempted by an ice queen as he claimed? Why would he have feared sex\nwith an Otherworld woman if he had survived sex with Lara? If North was an\naccidental visitor, how did it happen? Did he just happen to pass through\nthe same 'door' as another man who had been close to Lara (as almost\nhappened to Fanny at Mama's)? If Klamm is somehow Kissinger, and North is\nLiddy, was there more hanky-panky going on at the Watergate than political\nshenanigans, and North just went through the wrong door at the right time?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "StoneOx17", "address": "stoneox17 at aol.com" }, "date": "2003-02-08T21:39:21+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) DOORS: perhaps the last note thereon, this round", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy says, about North," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If he had loved the Goddess, why would he have\nbeen tempted by an ice queen as he claimed? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think North was lying. The police dossier says that he was the \nchief of Iron Boot when he was arrested, and I suspect his arrest\nwas in connection with this. Probably he doesn't want to mention\nthis, and since many of the other prisoners are in for breach of\npromise, that's the easiest way to fit in." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why would he have feared sex\nwith an Otherworld woman if he had survived sex with Lara? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Does anybody else think the nuse let him out of the hospital in\nexchange for sex? It doesn't matter whether she thought he could \nsurvive afterwards or whether she just thought he was nuts; there's\nadequate motivation either way. And this adds extra significance\nto North's comment \"Not a word about her, you notice? They're \nafraid they'll make them quit using nurses on the men's floor.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If North was anaccidental visitor, how did it happen? Did he just \nhappen to pass through the same 'door' as another man who had been \nclose to Lara (as almost happened to Fanny at Mama's)?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The conversation at the beginning of chapter 34 may indicate that\nNorth knows Lara. My opinion is that he was her lover as well (although\nit appears that he doesn't know she's the Goddess, unless he's lying \nabout that as well).\n\n-- Stone Ox " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Bollen", "address": "abollen at internode.on.net" }, "date": "2003-02-09T01:42:56+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) DOORS: perhaps the last note thereon, this round", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wrote:\n\"Leucothea\" was also the name of one of the Sirens. I've always thought\nthat\nit would have been a good name for Seawrack." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I forgot to make the obvious point that a Siren's name is appropriate for\nthe lover of Billy the sea captain.\n\nFWIW,\n\n\"Lara. A Naiad daughter of the River God Almo. Lara could not hold her\ntongue and reported to Hera that Zeus loved Juturna. For this Zeus wrenched\nfrom her the indiscreet tongue, and told Hermes to take her to Hades as she\nwas to become an infernal Nymph. In this way she became Tacita, The Silent\nGoddess (Dea Muta). Lara consorted with Hermes and gave birth to the LARES,\ntwin brothers, who guard the crossroads and ever keep watch in the city.\"\n\nI do like the way we get a link to Juturna and guardians of the crossroads,\nbut doubtul that it really means anything." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2003-02-09T09:14:00+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) DOORS: perhaps the last note thereon, this round", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Stone Ox wrote:\nDoes anybody else think the nuse let him out of the hospital in\nexchange for sex? It doesn't matter whether she thought he could\nsurvive afterwards or whether she just thought he was nuts; there's\nadequate motivation either way. And this adds extra significance\nto North's comment \"Not a word about her, you notice? They're\nafraid they'll make them quit using nurses on the men's floor.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I hadn't really thought about _why_ the nurse would help him. She risked her\njob, her car, and possible criminal charges. Motherhood seems a compelling\nreason; I just hope she wasn't the same greedy nurse who nailed poor Bailey!\nThen again, maybe she was. Maybe the story was true about North catching her\nin the act; he blackmailed Gloria into helping him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The conversation at the beginning of chapter 34 may indicate that\nNorth knows Lara. My opinion is that he was her lover as well (although\nit appears that he doesn't know she's the Goddess, unless he's lying\nabout that as well)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's hard for me to think of the Goddess choosing North. His personality is\nso different from Green or Klamm. The only thing I see in favor of his\nhaving been her lover is his name; but if that's enough to establish a link,\nthen I'll bet that W.F. was her lover as well, somewhere along the line, and\nI get no hint that he was a Visitor.\n\nI took that conversation as indicating that North was surprised to learn\nthat Green knew Walsh's lawyer, and thought Green had been conspiring behind\nhis back during those four months he had been missing.\n\n-Roy" } ] } ] }