{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3839", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3839, "subject": "DOORS: keyed Visitors", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "2003-02-09T03:54:21+00:00", "last": "2003-02-09T09:14:33+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2003-02-09T03:54:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) DOORS: keyed Visitors", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy Lackey wrote:\nIn an earlier post you thought North wanted to kill Lara. (He had his\nchance, btw, in the locker room before the big boxing match. He was armed.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I did think North was trying to kill Lara, and it is still a\npossibility. The problem was this: North seems so \"political\" in his\naction, and I could not see much point in North killing Klamm (a\npresidential advisor), whereas I could see a point in North killing the\nPresident (part of a coup d'etat) . . . recognizing that Lara is not\n(identified in the text as being also) the president, still, if North\nrealizes she is the goddess it seems to me that he might rather take a shot\nat her to destabilize Otherworld.\n\n(According to Graves this does not happen with Thunder-children. First\nthey eliminate the rival twins, then they marry the goddess, and then much\nmuch later they suppress the goddess with an all-male line up, which lasts\nfor a while until she bubbles up again. So technically, North trying to\nkill the goddess would be the action of a power-crazed anarchist working\noutside of the usual White Goddess framework; North trying to kill\nKlamm-as-rival fits perfectly, but only if North is a lover/candidate for\n\"the next level,\" whatever that is.)\n\nBut granted, this all grows out of the fact that shooting Klamm seems silly\nas a political act. Unless North had superiors who ordered it (this fits\nvery well with WILL, fwiw: Libby is ready to assassinate on command), but\nwe see no sign of North's superiors (heh-heh), he seems like a loose cannon\n(i.e., the way that G. Gordon Libby was portrayed)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Rivals in such mythological struggles usually battle one another for the\naffection/possession of the goddess. I don't get the impression that North\nwas interested in Lara, one way or the other." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here's a quote from the text:\n\n'North whirled on him. \"So--you know her. Are you working for her?\"\n'He nodded. \"I'd do anything in the world for her.\"\n'North's hand drew back . . . ' (ch 34, p. 286)\n\nThis suggests to me that North is interested in Lara, one way or another.\nAt the hospital, North gave Green some key info about the goddess, so he is\ndefinitely up on that. True, he might not be aware that Lara is the\ngoddess, he may be just labeling Lara Nomos as a member of the \"other side\"\nand his rage at Green might be the whole \"loyalty\" thing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Liddy, and by extension North,\nmay be off-center ideologically, but he is intelligent and practical.\nReaching the summit of political power would not alter biological fact. Men\nmay have the _cojones_ in Otherworld, but if they use them they die. This is\nthe emasculation ritual of the priests of Attis writ large." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not following this part. Are you saying that North would create/cement\nhis Otherworld power-base with an official eunuch corps? (This finds an\nunexpected ring with the starship finale of Spinrad's THE IRON DREAM, fwiw.\nNeat, because that book is an sf novel written by Hitler in a alternate\nhistory world where he emmigrated to America and more-or-less founded sf.)\nOr that the O-male politicians we see are openly eunuchs? This would,\nindeed, be a \"priests of Attis\" construct. But the Otherworld biology\n(with drones who die) does not seem to be Attis-like at all to me.\n\nRegarding my wondering about Visitors (all invited or some accidental), Roy" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "wrote:\nGreen's first passage seemed accidental to me; he didn't know he had done\nit, and Lara certainly didn't invite him. His second, brief, crossover (in\nthe arcade) was accidental. I don't think Lara invited _any_ of her lovers\nto Otherworld, for the reasons she gave Green at lunch. The secret\ngovernment policy of institutionalizing Visitors seems to indicate they were\nundesirable aliens." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here is a tangle!\n\nFirst of all, while I grant that Green didn't mean to enter the door (and\nthus it was accidental for his intentions), still, Lara's conversation with\nhim and the farewell note point out the dangers to him because they have\nbeen so close. That is to say, iirc, that Green is now \"keyed\" (with \"Lara\npollen,\" if you will) and doors will open to him which would not open to\nmere mortals. She urges him to back out immediately if it happens.\n\nAs for Lara inviting them, aside from the pollen that marks them as keys.\nRight, part of this phrasing is my fault: Lara's \"White Goddess\" mode means\nthat she is basically running away into the maze and saying it is\nperilously dangerous to follow her. It is like a game of tag with serious\ncomplications and physical danger. When I wrote \"inviting\" I probably\nshould have written \"advising\" or warning or whatever. My sense is that\nshe didn't give the real Attis enough \"advising,\" she just left, and this\nis part of what caused so much trouble for Attis later: he had only a\ngarbled notion of what Otherworld biology was all about and tried to make a\nsacrifice that he thought she would like.\n\nThe \"maze\" that I'm talking about is not one of Lara's making, or at least\nit is not entirely of her making. The maze is peopled by agents who are\ntrying to help Green to follow his dream and agents who are trying to\nhinder him (and save his life/restore his sanity). Early on the doctor\ntries to tell Green that \"Lara\" is probably an escaped convict who did\nsomething terrible as a child:\n\n\"If she had committed a serious offense in her teens -- a murder, perhaps,\nor if she'd had some complicity in a murder -- she would have been sent to\na girls' correctional center until she was of age, and then transfered to a\nwoman's prison to complete her sentence. Thus she might easily have spent\nthe last ten or twelve years in one or the other, Mr. Green\" (6).\n\n(This, in turn, finds strange corroboration with Tina's memories of\nbelonging to a girl/goddess who had some trauma. Could it possibly be that\nthe crime was what happened to Attis?)\n\nBut my main point in bringing it up is to show Lara as a hunted and/or\nimprisoned goddess, very much like Kypris of LS series (and other Love\ngoddesses that we won't mention right now). We know about Kypris's\nsituation in LS: she was the Isis-like lover to Osirus-like Pas. We know\nhardly anything about Lara's predicament -- in fact, my even suggesting\nthat she has one may be an over-reaching on my part." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "North is a problem either way. If he had been Lara's lover, I find no hint\nof it from either of them. If he had loved the Goddess, why would he have\nbeen tempted by an ice queen as he claimed? Why would he have feared sex\nwith an Otherworld woman if he had survived sex with Lara?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I wonder if he was worried about how he would be treated if he did have sex\nwith her: they would treat him as a dead man, take him to a hospice or\nsomething, which would mess up his political/virile ambitions. He would be\nrecognized for the wrong thing -- he wants to be recognized, all right, but\nat the time of his chosing and for the thing of his chosing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If North was an\naccidental visitor, how did it happen? Did he just happen to pass through\nthe same 'door' as another man who had been close to Lara (as almost\nhappened to Fanny at Mama's)?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right, it might be possible, but it seems more likely that Visitors are\n\"keyed\" with Lara pollen." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Klamm is somehow Kissinger, and North is\nLiddy, was there more hanky-panky going on at the Watergate than political\nshenanigans, and North just went through the wrong door at the right time?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While I'm delighted that alga is (or seems to be) agreeing with my\nKissinger/Klamm connection, I don't think that either one of us is saying\nthat Klamm is Kissinger himself nor a panalog (personal analog) of\nKissenger (I mean, he cannot be a panalog since he is a Visitor!). Nor is\nNorth meant as Libby himself, but as a man like Libby.\n\nThen again, I do like your Watergate Hotel notion as a likely site for the\ndoor. Yikes! There were those, er, prostitutes operating at the hotel,\niirc, and nothing screams Love goddess like that does.\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2003-02-09T09:14:33+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) DOORS: keyed Visitors", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "mantis quoted me and wrote:\nLiddy, and by extension North,\nmay be off-center ideologically, but he is intelligent and practical.\nReaching the summit of political power would not alter biological fact." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Men" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "may have the _cojones_ in Otherworld, but if they use them they die. This\nis\nthe emasculation ritual of the priests of Attis writ large." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not following this part. Are you saying that North would create/cement\nhis Otherworld power-base with an official eunuch corps? (This finds an\nunexpected ring with the starship finale of Spinrad's THE IRON DREAM, fwiw.\nNeat, because that book is an sf novel written by Hitler in a alternate\nhistory world where he emmigrated to America and more-or-less founded sf.)\nOr that the O-male politicians we see are openly eunuchs? This would,\nindeed, be a \"priests of Attis\" construct. But the Otherworld biology\n(with drones who die) does not seem to be Attis-like at all to me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, I wasn't thinking of eunuchs. I meant it metaphorically. The book\nspecifically links Lara to Attis, so we have no choice but to see her as\nCybele, though we both agree that she seems more like Aphrodite. We all know\nwhat happened to Attis. The Goddess apparently gets her kicks by 'loving 'em\nand leaving 'em', sort of an Olympian version of one-night stands. She may\nthink fondly of her discarded lovers, but not fondly enough; when she goes\nshe's gone, and she doesn't look back. Having loved a goddess, her former\nlovers are ruined for life; mere mortal women can't compare. Witness Green's\ncomplete lack of interest in sex with other women, even when openly pursued.\nThat's not natural.\n\nOtherworld's matriarchal society and peculiar reproductive system mimic the\nCybele-Attis model in that men are reduced to one-night stands, a means to\nan end. The very act that the Goddess sought out men for is the one act that\nguarantees Otherworld men will, like Attis, die in consequence. Certain\ndeath is as potent a check on the essence of masculinity as there is. Not\nbeing native to Otherworld may have confused Attis, so that he mistook her\nadmonishments against sex too literally. Men in Otherworld suffer no such\nillusions. They have been, in effect, biologically and socially emasculated,\nso that they are not men as men are in our world. That's why the Goddess\nhunts her prey in greener lands." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The \"maze\" that I'm talking about is not one of Lara's making, or at least\nit is not entirely of her making. The maze is peopled by agents who are\ntrying to help Green to follow his dream and agents who are trying to\nhinder him (and save his life/restore his sanity). Early on the doctor\ntries to tell Green that \"Lara\" is probably an escaped convict who did\nsomething terrible as a child:\n\n\"If she had committed a serious offense in her teens -- a murder, perhaps,\nor if she'd had some complicity in a murder -- she would have been sent to\na girls' correctional center until she was of age, and then transfered to a\nwoman's prison to complete her sentence. Thus she might easily have spent\nthe last ten or twelve years in one or the other, Mr. Green\" (6).\n\n(This, in turn, finds strange corroboration with Tina's memories of\nbelonging to a girl/goddess who had some trauma. Could it possibly be that\nthe crime was what happened to Attis?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Too many years between Attis and Green for the doctor's comments to be\nliterally true. I dismissed the doctor's comments, just as I did those\nFreudian utterances of the hospital staff in FREE LIVE FREE. I thought Wolfe\nwas just, again, poking fun at the psychobabble establishment spinning\nelaborate, fanciful webs out of so little real knowledge. Unless the doctor\nwas privy to the fact that her receptionist was more than she appeared to\nbe, i.e., a goddess, there's no way for the doctor to have known any such\nthing. And if the doctor didn't know that Green's Lara was the same person\nas her receptionist, then she had even less to go on.\n\nBut your theory does bring up another point: was Lara a Visitor herself? Was\nshe not native to Otherworld?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But my main point in bringing it up is to show Lara as a hunted and/or\nimprisoned goddess, very much like Kypris of LS series (and other Love\ngoddesses that we won't mention right now). We know about Kypris's\nsituation in LS: she was the Isis-like lover to Osirus-like Pas. We know\nhardly anything about Lara's predicament -- in fact, my even suggesting\nthat she has one may be an over-reaching on my part." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And we all know what the one part of her dismembered lover that Isis\ncouldn't find was, don't we? \n\n-Roy" } ] } ] }