{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3854", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3854, "subject": "Promises of Spring, or, The Presence of the Unstated", "messages": 5, "voices": 4, "first": "2003-02-18T22:53:47+00:00", "last": "2003-02-19T21:58:20+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nigel Price", "address": "nigel.aprice at virgin.net" }, "date": "2003-02-18T22:53:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Promises of Spring, or, The Presence of the Unstated", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On the subject of Adam's interesting \"Wintry thoughts\" and Nutria's helpful\nresponse (I'm waiting to see where Mantis is going before I comment!)...\n\nMy previous reference to the possible divergence between the world-views\nWolfe writes about and his own religious beliefs was partly cautionary, and\npartly admiring. Others have picked up and followed through on the first\naspect, but I would also want to stress the second. Wolfe applies and\nextends the science fictional delight in speculation and the exploration of\n\"what if\" scenarios to include matters theological as well as scientific. He\nis not, of course, alone in doing this, but he does it superbly well.\nOccasionally, he does it for playful effect, but mostly, and especially in\nhis longer fiction, his concerns are deeply serious.\n\nI would certainly agree that Wolfe is essentially a tragic rather than\ncomedic author. His fictions, whether science fictional or fantastic in\nemphasis, are characteristically dark. Adam's comments on his narrow range\nare well made, and (Adam, correct me if I'm wrong!) descriptive rather than\nevaluative.\n\nThe absence of, or lack of emphasis on, romantic love may simply reflect his\nchoice of mode or genre, rather than, as Nutria suggests, a lack of interest\nor expertise. Given his tragic themes, an abundance of happily married\ncouples and contented lovers would be inappropriate. They would undermine\nthe sombre mood of many of his stories.\n\nThe same might be said of the absence of clearly redemptive motifs. I have\nalready described my initial confused response to reading Wolfe's books and\ntrying to understand the author's underlying beliefs. Now I've read more of\nhis works, my impression is that Wolfe is doing something quite deliberate\nwith the presentation, or non-presentation, of his own Christian beliefs. I\ntake Nutria's point about certain strategic absences in his books pointing\n\"off the page\" to humanity's need for God. As ever, he makes the point well,\nbut I think that there's more to it than that. In the same way that Wolfe,\nas far as possible, deliberately removes plot explanations, leaving but a\nsingle reference or clue to each key fact needed to explain what is really\ngoing on in the story, so he also, I think, plays a sort of game of literary\nminimalism in which he sees how much explicit evidence of God's existence\nand work he can remove from his stories without actually denying his faith.\n\nThis is just another aspect of Wolfe's familiar literary shiftiness, that\nwilfully obscure and playfully misleading quality for which I and many\nothers here love him to bits but which at times drives many of us to\ndistraction. He hates explicitness in stories and loves indirection and\nmisdirection. In his writing, he is the builder of the Solar Labyrinth, that\nmaze which compounds the difficulty of solution by constantly moving the\nwalls as the shadows shift with the passing of the sun. This puzzle building\nis part of Wolfe's essential artistry, his joy and heart's delight, and to\nread him is to go gleefully along with the game or else scream out in sheer\nfrustration.\n\nWe're used to his unreliable narrators, disguised explanations and sudden\nshifts of theme away from the things we want to know. Well, consider his\nchoice of locations and stories as part of that same literary mind set.\nWhere would it be really difficult to find any obvious signs of God at work?\nWhere would there be the fewest signs of Christian belief? How about a story\nset in a universe where the parousia is so long delayed that even Jesus'\nname has been forgotten? Where those in holy orders have become torturers?\nWhat about a story set in a pagan world well before the time of Christ? Or\nhow about a sealed, pocket universe, made by a mad dictator and ruled by a\nfamily of artificial pagan gods who have devised their own religion and\ntheir own parody of the church?\n\nWolfe clearly likes a challenge, but the game seems to be not to exclude\nGod, but to show that even when you make it apparently \"impossible\" for him\nto be there, he is still, inescapably, there, and all sorts of unlikely and\napparently inappropriate things turn out to reveal, even if only fleetingly,\npartial and distorted images of his love and power. He is the Increate, but\nfor Wolfe, it would seem that all created things retain evidence of his\nfingerprints - somewhere.\n\nThat's what I think is going on. Wolfe is a writer of tragedies and dark\nromances whose delight is to hide clues to what is really happening.\n\nNigel" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2003-02-19T00:05:31+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Promises of Spring, or, The Presence of the Unstated", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Bouncing off some of Nigel's points ... I'm not quite ready\nto pronounce the coming of Summer, but ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I would certainly agree that Wolfe is essentially a tragic \nrather than comedic author." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes/no ... and likewise yes/no to the original statement that\nthe Christian worldview is \"comedic.\" It depends on what you\nmean by \"worldview.\" The Christian view of _this_ world is\ntragic. This world is flawed, as fatally as MacBeth or \nOedipus; its degradation, decay, and doom are inevitable. As \nfar as this world is concerned, entropy is the last word. \n\nBut, the Christian view then says, this world is not the end \nof the story ... \n\nWolfe writes stories set in this world, in the sense that \nall his stories are set in the Fallen World. The comedic \nhappy ending, if any, are precisely where Nutria located them: \n\"off the page,\" outside the frame, not in this world. As far\nas the page goes -- as far as the explicit content of the \nstory is concerned -- yes: Wolfe is a tragic writer. But I,\nat least, always hear in the background a whispered \"...but...\"\n\n* * * * * " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[...] my impression is that Wolfe is doing something quite \ndeliberate with the presentation, or non-presentation, of his \nown Christian beliefs. ... In the same \nway that Wolfe, as far as possible, deliberately removes plot \nexplanations, leaving but a single reference or clue to each \nkey fact needed to explain what is really going on in the \nstory, so he also, I think, plays a sort of game of literary \nminimalism in which he sees how much explicit evidence of \nGod's existence and work he can remove from his stories \nwithout actually denying his faith." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's an interesting point ... and one that I find extremely\ndifficult to understand, especially in the aftermath of the \nLong/Short books, in which over and over God/the Outsider \nrepeatedly intervenes in subtle but active and difficult-to-\nignore ways. Wolfe, as usual, allows the sceptical reader an \n\"out\" for most of these, but (like the crane-ial accident \ntheory of Silk's enlightenment) they generally feel _less_ \nconvincing than an outright supernatural explanation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe clearly likes a challenge, but the game seems to be not \nto exclude God, but to show that even when you make it \napparently \"impossible\" for him to be there, he is still, \ninescapably, there, and all sorts of unlikely and apparently \ninappropriate things turn out to reveal, even if only \nfleetingly, partial and distorted images of his love and \npower. He is the Increate, but for Wolfe, it would seem that \nall created things retain evidence of his fingerprints - somewhere." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Bingo. Ultimately, I think that in Wolfe's work, God plays,\nover and over, variations on the \"Hound of Heaven\" game\n(http://www2.bc.edu/~anderso/sr/ft.html) -- wooing and \npursuing His errant creatures, who in the end either give\nin to Him or (that tragic thisworldview) become the willing\ninstruments of their own destruction ... the former most\nclearly seen, I think, in stories like \"The Detective of\nDreams\" and \"Westwind,\" the latter in novels like 5HC.\n\n(PEACE remains ambiguous... what does Weer finally choose?\nOr does he?)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2003-02-19T19:22:49+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Promises of Spring, or, The Presence of the Unstated", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 18 Feb 2003, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nYes/no ... and likewise yes/no to the original statement that\nthe Christian worldview is \"comedic.\" It depends on what you\nmean by \"worldview.\" The Christian view of _this_ world is\ntragic. This world is flawed, as fatally as MacBeth or\nOedipus; its degradation, decay, and doom are inevitable. As\nfar as this world is concerned, entropy is the last word.\n\nBut, the Christian view then says, this world is not the end\nof the story ..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's *a* Christian view of the world. There have been Christians who\nbelieved that Christ and the Holy Spirit working in the Church would make\nthe world better and better (but never fully restored) until the return of\nChrist. (More in the 19th century than the 20th, for obvious reasons.)\n\n-- Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2003-02-19T20:34:20+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Promises of Spring, or, The Presence of the Unstated", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's *a* Christian view of the world. There have been \nChristians who believed that Christ and the Holy Spirit \nworking in the Church would make the world better and better \n(but never fully restored) until the return of Christ. (More \nin the 19th century than the 20th, for obvious reasons.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fair enough ... I tend to use terms like \"the Christian view\" \nto refer to the mainstream views (i.e., those shared by Catholicism,\nEastern Orthodoxy, and most of the larger and older Protestant \ngroups). I have indeed seen this view -- though even then they \nusually refer to the restored world as if it were a new creation. \n\nI'm not at all sure why this would have been more prevalent in \nthe XIX century, so I guess the reasons aren't all that obvious." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2003-02-19T21:58:20+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Promises of Spring, or, The Presence of the Unstated", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Blattid rightly says:\nYes/no ... and likewise yes/no to the original statement that the Christian\nworldview is \"comedic.\" It depends on what you > mean by \"worldview.\" The\nChristian view of _this_ world is > tragic. This world is flawed, as fatally\nas MacBeth or Oedipus; its degradation, decay, and doom are inevitable. As\nfar as this world is concerned, entropy is the last word.\n\nRostrum rightly says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's *a* Christian view of the world. There have been\nChristians who believed that Christ and the Holy Spirit\nworking in the Church would make the world better and better\n(but never fully restored) until the return of Christ. (More\nin the 19th century than the 20th, for obvious reasons.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Blattid responds:\nFair enough ... I tend to use terms like \"the Christian view\"\nto refer to the mainstream views (i.e., those shared by Catholicism,\nEastern Orthodoxy, and most of the larger and older Protestant\ngroups). I have indeed seen this view -- though even then they\nusually refer to the restored world as if it were a new creation.\n\nI'm not at all sure why this would have been more prevalent in\nthe XIX century, so I guess the reasons aren't all that obvious." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush drones on and on without invitation:\nAlthough I'm not RC I've lived most my life in heavily or primarily RC\nregions (in NE US and SW US), and I'm pretty sure that Rostrum's described\nposition is at least **a** widely and traditionally held view of RCs. And\nuntil the early 20th century it was 'mainstream.'\n\nThe position Blattid defined is one with which John Calvin would not only\nfind acceptable but central. Among Protestants (until the last century) this\nview of the world and how the story would play out may have even been THE\nmajor difference between Calvinist and non-Calvinist denominations. That\ndoesn't mean Calvin originated the position or that many RCs did not hold it\nas well. Although I was unaware of it, clearly many lifelong RCs DO hold\nthis position. But the RCs I know are much less interested in eschatology\nthan their Protestant siblings in Christ.\n\nI'm led to believe that this disinclination goes back to the century after\nChristianity's legalization. The book of Revelation was one of the books\nthat was added to the canon with *some* controversy. And although it was\nquoted from in Jude, the eschatological book of Enoch fell into disuse at\nthis time and nearly disappeared. This is because of a widely held belief\nthat the already obvious withering away of the Roman Empire was the\nfulfillment of Daniel's prophecy of a stone (Christianity), made without\nhands which blasts away the Empire of Iron and permanently replaces it (Dan\n2). If one sees this as the sum total fulfillment, why does one need more to\nthe story?\n\nThis position became less appealing to Protestants (perhaps RCs as well)\nwhen the horrors of WWI and WWII (in which Christianized European nations\nwere central) made it seem less likely that the world was constantly and\ngradually improving toward a reign of Christ. Germany had reverted to\npaganism, and all the others were becoming more secular.\n\nSo... does Wolfe's thematic use of the book of Revelation in tFHoC and\ntBotLS mean that he sees it as legitimate prophecy still to be fulfilled or\nthat he sees it as available \"myth\" and uses it as he uses so many other\nworld myths.\n\n--- Crush" } ] } ] }