{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3862", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3862, "subject": "Love, Hyacinth, Valeria", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "2003-02-20T22:34:44+00:00", "last": "2003-02-21T07:16:07+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2003-02-20T22:34:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Love, Hyacinth, Valeria", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At 02:17 PM 2/20/2003, you wrote:\n\nAs for Silk, my memory of TBOTLS is not that good, as I said; but my" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "recollection was that the \"Hyacinth\" Silk loves is largely a creation of his\nimagination.\n\n--Adam" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or perhaps (and rather, I submit) the Hyacinth that Silk loves is her true \nself, which she does not herself see, and constantly abuses. And her \nmisperceptions and self-degradations are, horribly, the result of the way \nmen have used and abused her.\n Silk loves Hyacinth with \"eros,\" but more with \"agape,\" the love \nof principle that sees into the truth and does not flinch.\n Maybe it's just me, but I myself found the scene where the boy \nSeverian meets Valeria to be quite charming. I felt Severian was smitten \nwith her, at a childish level, and I was too. Okay, they're not old enough \nfor romantic love, and Severian becomes bored with her after 10 years of \nmarriage and can't wait to cheat on her. No agape here!\n My point is that, for me anyway, Wolfe is capable of presenting \nrather endearing and affectionate scenes when he wants so. He just doesn't \nvery often want to.\n FWIW.\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "cilluff1 at optonline.net", "address": "cilluff1 at optonline.net" }, "date": "2003-02-20T22:40:27+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Love, Hyacinth, Valeria", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nutria wrote:\n\n<>\n\nI also thought many of the scenes with Severian and Dorcas were quite\ncharming too -- true, she's his grandmother and he cheats on her to boot,\nbut still, before you realize they're related it's quite romantic.\n\n- Shell" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2003-02-21T07:16:07+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Love, Hyacinth, Valeria", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nutria, responding to Adam, wrote:\nAs for Silk, my memory of TBOTLS is not that good, as I said; but my\nrecollection was that the \"Hyacinth\" Silk loves is largely a creation of\nhis\nimagination." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--Adam" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or perhaps (and rather, I submit) the Hyacinth that Silk loves is her true\nself, which she does not herself see, and constantly abuses. And her\nmisperceptions and self-degradations are, horribly, the result of the way\nmen have used and abused her.\n Silk loves Hyacinth with \"eros,\" but more with \"agape,\" the love\nof principle that sees into the truth and does not flinch." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Silk did more than flinch--he nearly jumped, from the airship. I agree with\nAdam that the Hy Silk fell in love with--at their first meeting--didn't\nreally exist. It didn't take Silk long to find that out, either, which is\nwhy he despaired on the airship, but by then it was too late.\n\nLet me review the facts. Less than 24 hours after Silk's \"enlightenment\", at\nwhich time he pledged heart and soul to the Outsider, he fell in love with a\nbeautiful, naked, junkie whore. Hy neither said or did anything at their\nfirst meeting to inspire love. The most obvious thing she had going for her\nwas her body, something any normal 23-year-old male could appreciate. The\nsoiled sheets on her bed should have told him her worth as a human being.\nThat she \"came on\" to him, a complete stranger, might have gladdened his\ngonads, but the Father Brown in him should have seen beyond that.\n\nBut, along with her body, Hy possessed one other important quality--she was\npossessed by Kypris at the time of their meeting. This isn't speculation;\nKypris said so when she appeared to Silk in the glass at Orchid's.\nPossession by the \"love\" goddess imbues the possessed with apparently\nirresistible qualities. This is the only excuse I can find for Silk falling\nso hard for so little, all within a matter of hours after his enlightenment.\nDays later, after finding and marrying Hy--which had nothing to do with the\nmission given him by the Outsider--when Hy was no longer possessed by\nKypris, Silk realized he had lusted after her at the expense of his\ncommitment. Without Kypris to add shine to Hy's natural luster, Silk began\nto see her for what she was, which wasn't much. The same thing happened to\nAuk. He fell in love with Chenille when she was possessed by Kypris, but\nwhen the goddess was gone Chenille wasn't as lovable.\n\nAs with Moses's \"sin\" in the wilderness, Silk was tempted and failed his\nGod; and, like Moses, he was punished by being denied the Promised Land.\nThat's the real reason Silk didn't go on the lander. He stayed with Hy\nbecause he was man enough to live with the consequences of his own actions.\nAnd as soon as Hy was dead he was on his way to Blue, however convoluted the\npath the Outsider chose for him.\n\n-Roy" } ] } ] }