{
  "export": {
    "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3863",
    "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it.  Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.",
    "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'"
  },
  "archive": "urth",
  "thread": {
    "id": 3863,
    "subject": "Spring blooms on Planet Wolfe",
    "messages": 1,
    "voices": 1,
    "first": "2003-02-20T22:54:58+00:00",
    "last": "2003-02-20T22:54:58+00:00"
  },
  "messages": [
    {
      "message_id": "<urth-v0302-2977@digest.urth.net>",
      "from": {
        "name": "James Wynn",
        "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com"
      },
      "date": "2003-02-20T22:54:58+00:00",
      "subject": "RE: (urth) Spring blooms on Planet Wolfe",
      "in_reply_to": null,
      "reply_link": null,
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Adam Stephanides takes on Crush's list of Wolfean lovers:\nI haven't read the Soldier books in a long time, and my memory of them is\ndim, so you may well be right about Latro.  But V.R.T. is searching for the\ntruth about himself, not for his mother, at least as I read it.\n\nAs for the other three, I did originally say \"protagonists.\"  Especially in\nWolfe's books, it's the viewpoint character who dominates the reader's\nexperience.  The effect on the reader of being tied to the consciousness of\na man unable to love won't be dispelled by observing from afar other\ncharacters who love.\n\nHaving said this, I must confess with embarrassment that I'd forgotten when\nI wrote my original post about Severian's relationship with Thecla.\n(Interesting that nobody brought this up in reply.)  Though I haven't reread\nTBOTNS in a while either, I'd be willing to concede this as a counterexample\nto my original claim.  But note how gingerly Wolfe handles the\nSeverian-Thecla relationship: not until long after Thecla's death do we\nlearn there was any sexual component to it, and even then we only learn of\nthis in brief allusions.  And Severian's final judgment on Thecla is rather\nclinical, iirc.\n\n\nCrush considers his analysis:\nYes, I see that stipulation now. However, I contend that Auk's love for\nChenille still qualifies as a protagonist's love since many chapters of the\nLong Sun are told from his point of view. Same goes for Mint who is being\nseduced by death. V.R.T says he came to St. Croix looking for his mother,\nbut I think you meant romantic love so I withdraw it.\n\nI guess I was most motivated by the statement \"Wolfe is a great writer, but\nhis emotional range is limited.\"\n\nEven if \"neither Green nor Silk really knows the woman he 'loves'\" does that\nmean he doesn't love them or that the portrayal isn't valid? How realistic\nis it to say anyone really 'knows' the one they love. How better to show\nlove than love that is difficult or love for someone whose behavior doesn't\nmerit it? What is love if it is only merited? And while I love my wife more\nthan life, sometimes loving her is difficult and she definitely would say\nthe same of me.\n\nBy the way. On the issue of Severian's \"clinical\" analysis of Thecla. It\ndoesn't seem clinical to me but only one would expect since Thecla had\nactually \"become\" Severian at his writing. Severian is as much writing about\nhimself. Imagine trying to write about a love affair in which **out of\nlove** you simultaneously killed and were killed by your lover. Consider\nalso, that Severian/Thecla knows that her feelings toward\nSeverian-as-her-torturer were ambivalent.\n\nTo me, that Wolfe handles this as delicately as he does (including his\neating of Thecla's body) shows impressive emotional sensitivity.\n\nMy point is that Green, Silk, Latro, and, as you point out, even cold\nSeverian fall in love. They love enough to suffer over it. And how else can\nyou prove \"real love\"?\n\nAnd see how well Wolfe has shown love in totally different people and\nsituations. Green's love of a man with more heart than intellect. Severian's\nand Latro's (and Horn's) love in men who are barely sane. Silk's public and\nembarrassing love of an intelligent man for a complicated woman whom he can\nbarely understand and whom it would be better for him not to try.\n\n -- Crush"
        }
      ]
    }
  ]
}