{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3874", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3874, "subject": "Che's \"Gender in TBOTLS\" and \"Questions\"", "messages": 4, "voices": 2, "first": "2003-03-03T16:45:37+00:00", "last": "2003-03-04T08:19:52+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2003-03-03T16:45:37+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Che's \"Gender in TBOTLS\" and \"Questions\"", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Che Monro\n\nChem Onrust ;-) shares his anxieties about gender-bending on the Whorl:\nI've been reading in the archives some speculation about gender changing in\nthe Book of the Long Sun, in particular that Chenile and Hyacinth may have\nbeen male." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush responds soothingly:\nSince I'm primarily responsible for all this, I'll take some of this on...\n\nFirst, my opinions have developed about regarding Hyacinth and Chenille\nsince I made those arguments. I believe I now understand EXACTLY what's\ngoing on with Chenille and why her name is sexually ambiguous. I'm think I\nhave a **general** understanding of Hyacinth and I no longer see any reason\nthat she is male. But I'm still developing the evidence both these\ncharacters so that's all I'll say.\n\nYou didn't mention the one character with whose cross-dressing I am\nsatisfied with both the evidence and the thematic value. That is, Incus!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Then he asks:\n2a. The Fifth Head of Cerebus. I never understood\nthis story at all. Who's a clone of who?\nWhat service does the house provide,\njust what's going on here? Lovely story, but I can't\nmake head or tale of it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush helps as much as he can:\nThe original of the clones (whom we'll call \"Original\") cloned himself and\nthen committed suicide to create Mr. Million. The clone (whom we'll call\nNumber Two) cloned himself to create Maitre. Maitre (who is fourth in order\nafter Original, Number Two, and Mr. Million) murdered Number Two and cloned\nhimself to create Number Five. Number Five murdered Maitre, went to prison,\nand was released (perhaps there was a coup or St. Croix lost its war with\nSt. Anne). He then returned to \"the Cave\" and cloned himself again.\n\n\"The Cave\" is a brothel.\n\nFor information on this, I strongly recommend you start with Robert Borski's\ninteresting website, \"Cave Canem\".\nhttp://webpages.charter.net/rborski/\n\n\n--- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Che Monro", "address": "flirt at technologist.com" }, "date": "2003-03-03T22:50:42+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Che's \"Gender in TBOTLS\" and \"Questions\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Crush responds soothingly:\nSince I'm primarily responsible for all this, I'll take some of this on..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gosh, thanks Crush. :)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "First, my opinions have developed about regarding Hyacinth and Chenille\nsince I made those arguments. I believe I now understand EXACTLY what's\ngoing on with Chenille and why her name is sexually ambiguous. I'm think I\nhave a **general** understanding of Hyacinth and I no longer see any reason\nthat she is male. But I'm still developing the evidence both these\ncharacters so that's all I'll say." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "*laughs* But Hyacinths are a male symbol, as used in um, The Wasteland by \nT. S. Elliot. Yup yup. As you pointed out." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You didn't mention the one character with whose cross-dressing I am\nsatisfied with both the evidence and the thematic value. That is, Incus!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Um, now you make me sad that I've lent my book of the Long Sun to someone \nand haven't got it here to refer to. What about the Chem guard I mentioned \nwho used to dress up and who got killed in an attempted rape? *sighs* Poor \ncharacter. I'm satisfied with that evidence, althouh, I am fairly literal \nminded and I read things at face value mostly. You can see why I'm not the \nideal Wolfe fan, I just love his style and emotion and storytelling power, \nbut most of his tricksyness goes straight over my poor simple pretty little \nhead." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Then he asks:\n2a. The Fifth Head of Cerebus. I never understood\nthis story at all. Who's a clone of who?\nWhat service does the house provide,\njust what's going on here? Lovely story, but I can't\nmake head or tale of it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Crush helps as much as he can:\nThe original of the clones (whom we'll call \"Original\") cloned himself and\nthen committed suicide to create Mr. Million. The clone (whom we'll call\nNumber Two) cloned himself to create Maitre. Maitre (who is fourth in order\nafter Original, Number Two, and Mr. Million) murdered Number Two and cloned\nhimself to create Number Five. Number Five murdered Maitre, went to prison,\nand was released (perhaps there was a coup or St. Croix lost its war with\nSt. Anne). He then returned to \"the Cave\" and cloned himself again.\n\n\"The Cave\" is a brothel." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ug. So Biology really is destiny then? I love that story and the whole \nshape changer setup, but there's so much about it that I don't understand.\n\nI'd love to hear your ideas about Chenile too. I liked her, although it's \nSilk and Oreb who I read the book for, mostly. But there's so much in \nthere, isn't there? Definitely a desert island book. I reckon that you \ncould spend 20 years reading the 3 Wolf series on a desert island and still \nnot get to the bottom of it. I could, anyhow.\n\nCheers,\n\nChe\n\nChé Franz Joseph Monro -- http://www.chemonro.com\nche at chemonro.com -- flirt at technologist.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2003-03-03T23:44:13+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Che's \"Gender in TBOTLS\" and \"Questions\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Che challenges Crush's premature abandonment of his male Hyacinth theories:\n*laughs* But Hyacinths are a male symbol, as used in um, The Wasteland by\nT. S. Elliot. Yup yup. As you pointed out.\n\nCrush concedes but backs away from the brink:\nYes, that's true. And the story of Apollo and Hyacinthus is a rather famous\nhomosexual story - there were plenty of heterosexual Apolloan lovers whose\nnames Wolfe might have used and didn't. However, I think I know the chem\nwith whom Hyacinth is associated and that chem is not male. I think know the\nbio with whom Hyacinth is associated and it is a woman. I'm still willing to\nbe convinced of Hyacinth's masculinity, but at this time I can't get there.\n\nChe pushes harder:\n What about the Chem guard I mentioned who used to dress up and who got\nkilled in an attempted rape? *sighs* Poor character.\n\nCrush concedes:\nI believe you are referring to the counterspy, Titi, whose name is\nambiguously that of a monkey and a flower. Yep. That's true. But that's\nhardly a secret. Still, it does show that ambivalent names should be taken\nseriously. Consequently, I don't know what to do with the ambivalent name\n\"Villus.\" It's so obscure, the ambiguity must be intentional, but what does\nit mean?\n\nRegarding Crush's explanation of the \"Fifth Head\" clones:\nUg. So Biology really is destiny then?\n\nCrush consoles:\nNot exactly. The destiny of the clones is determined also by their\n**nurture** because it is the same for Number Five and Maitre, just as their\nDNA is the same. Maitre and Number Five were raised each in the same house\nby the same person who was raised by the same person in the same house. So\nVRT/Marsch tells them that they are different only in their ages and views\nthem as the SAME personality. This is more of Wolfe's investigation on the\nmeaning of Identity.\n\nChe attempts to lure Crush out of his protective hollow:\nI'd love to hear your ideas about Chenile too. I liked her, although it's\nSilk and Oreb who I read the book for, mostly.\n\nCrush mostly doesn't bite:\nLearning from my previous unfruitful foray into suggesting Hyacinth's nature\n(which turned out to be mostly wrong anyway), I'm hesitant to make\nassertions about Chenille's nature without a lot more supporting facts. If I\ndid, what would we talk about? I'd say what I think. Other's would say they\ndon't agree or worse that my logic is fundamentally faulty. I will\neventually accumulate the necessary facts, don't doubt it.\n\nWolfe was playing with a **lot** of subtext in the relationship between Silk\nand Oreb. However, since, as you say, you are quite literally minded, I\ndoubt there is much of interest about them that I can to offer you. Still,\nthe story of the Eye of Horus at least is an interesting read even if you\ndon't care that in Wolfe's retelling, Oreb is \"the Eye.\"\n\n--- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Che Monro", "address": "flirt at technologist.com" }, "date": "2003-03-04T08:19:52+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Che's \"Gender in TBOTLS\" and \"Questions\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 05:44 PM 3/03/03 -0600, you wrote:\nChe challenges Crush's premature abandonment of his male Hyacinth theories:\nChe pushes harder:\nChe attempts to lure Crush out of his protective hollow:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "*giggles and hides a smile behind her, um *ahem* his hand, Yes* You know \nthey don't call me The Flirt for nothing. ;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe was playing with a **lot** of subtext in the relationship between Silk\nand Oreb. However, since, as you say, you are quite literally minded, I\ndoubt there is much of interest about them that I can to offer you. Still,\nthe story of the Eye of Horus at least is an interesting read even if you\ndon't care that in Wolfe's retelling, Oreb is \"the Eye.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh I must go and look this up. Was Horus the one who got torn up into \nlittle bits or was that Pas? Or Osiris? The all seeing eye of Horus also \ncomes into Lois MacMaster Bujold's work as the symbol of ImpSec, the \nsecurity wing of the Barrayar Imperium. Coincidence? I think not!\n\nIt's quite plausible to assume that the Whorl is traversing near Barrayaran \nspace and they plant Oreb on board as a secret agent. Nobody will suspect \nan innocent bird of being a spy who watches everything. This would make The \nOutsider... Simon Illyan, the head of ImpSec. Does Bujold ever mention \nspybirds? No, but someone else does. Was it Harry Harrison in The Stainless \nSteal Rat?\n\nBut where is Miles in all of this, I hear you ask? I don't know, probably \nlost down in all those tunnels that look alike along with everyone else.\n\nCan anyone disprove this theory for me, please?\n\nAnyhow, thanks for the information on Oreb, it's provided a whole new light \non the book for me. Um, that's a positive thing, I think. ;)\n\nChe" } ] } ] }