Subject: RE: (urth) Che's "Gender in TBOTLS" and "Questions"

From: James Wynn <crushtv at hotpop.com>
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 16:45:37 +0000

>
>Chem Onrust ;-) shares his anxieties about gender-bending on the Whorl:
>I've been reading in the archives some speculation about gender changing in
>the Book of the Long Sun, in particular that Chenile and Hyacinth may have
>been male.

Crush responds soothingly:
Since I'm primarily responsible for all this, I'll take some of this on...

First, my opinions have developed about regarding Hyacinth and Chenille
since I made those arguments. I believe I now understand EXACTLY what's
going on with Chenille and why her name is sexually ambiguous. I'm think I
have a **general** understanding of Hyacinth and I no longer see any reason
that she is male. But I'm still developing the evidence both these
characters so that's all I'll say.

You didn't mention the one character with whose cross-dressing I am
satisfied with both the evidence and the thematic value. That is, Incus!

>Then he asks:
> 2a. The Fifth Head of Cerebus. I never understood
>this story at all. Who's a clone of who?
>What service does the house provide,
>just what's going on here? Lovely story, but I can't
>make head or tale of it.

Crush helps as much as he can:
The original of the clones (whom we'll call "Original") cloned himself and
then committed suicide to create Mr. Million. The clone (whom we'll call
Number Two) cloned himself to create Maitre. Maitre (who is fourth in order
after Original, Number Two, and Mr. Million) murdered Number Two and cloned
himself to create Number Five. Number Five murdered Maitre, went to prison,
and was released (perhaps there was a coup or St. Croix lost its war with
St. Anne). He then returned to "the Cave" and cloned himself again.

"The Cave" is a brothel.

For information on this, I strongly recommend you start with Robert Borski's
interesting website, "Cave Canem".
http://webpages.charter.net/rborski/

--- Crush

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From: Che Monro <flirt at technologist.com>
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 22:50:42 +0000

>Since I'm primarily responsible for all this, I'll take some of this on...

Gosh, thanks Crush. :)

>characters so that's all I'll say.

*laughs* But Hyacinths are a male symbol, as used in um, The Wasteland by 
T. S. Elliot. Yup yup. As you pointed out.

>satisfied with both the evidence and the thematic value. That is, Incus!

Um, now you make me sad that I've lent my book of the Long Sun to someone 
and haven't got it here to refer to. What about the Chem guard I mentioned 
who used to dress up and who got killed in an attempted rape? *sighs* Poor 
character. I'm satisfied with that evidence, althouh, I am fairly literal 
minded and I read things at face value mostly. You can see why I'm not the 
ideal Wolfe fan, I just love his style and emotion and storytelling power, 
but most of his tricksyness goes straight over my poor simple pretty little 
head.

>St. Anne). He then returned to "the Cave" and cloned himself again.

Ug. So Biology really is destiny then? I love that story and the whole 
shape changer setup, but there's so much about it that I don't understand.

I'd love to hear your ideas about Chenile too. I liked her, although it's 
Silk and Oreb who I read the book for, mostly. But there's so much in 
there, isn't there? Definitely a desert island book. I reckon that you 
could spend 20 years reading the 3 Wolf series on a desert island and still 
not get to the bottom of it. I could, anyhow.

Cheers,

Che

Ché Franz Joseph Monro -- http://www.chemonro.com
che at chemonro.com    --     flirt at technologist.com

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From: James Wynn <crushtv at hotpop.com>
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 23:44:13 +0000

Che challenges Crush's premature abandonment of his male Hyacinth theories:
*laughs* But Hyacinths are a male symbol, as used in um, The Wasteland by
T. S. Elliot. Yup yup. As you pointed out.

Crush concedes but backs away from the brink:
Yes, that's true. And the story of Apollo and Hyacinthus is a rather famous
homosexual story - there were plenty of heterosexual Apolloan lovers whose
names Wolfe might have used and didn't. However, I think I know the chem
with whom Hyacinth is associated and that chem is not male. I think know the
bio with whom Hyacinth is associated and it is a woman. I'm still willing to
be convinced of Hyacinth's masculinity, but at this time I can't get there.

Che pushes harder:
 What about the Chem guard I mentioned who used to dress up and who got
killed in an attempted rape? *sighs* Poor character.

Crush concedes:
I believe you are referring to the counterspy, Titi, whose name is
ambiguously that of a monkey and a flower. Yep. That's true. But that's
hardly a secret. Still, it does show that ambivalent names should be taken
seriously. Consequently, I don't know what to do with the ambivalent name
"Villus." It's so obscure, the ambiguity must be intentional, but what does
it mean?

Regarding Crush's explanation of the "Fifth Head" clones:
Ug. So Biology really is destiny then?

Crush consoles:
Not exactly. The destiny of the clones is determined also by their
**nurture** because it is the same for Number Five and Maitre, just as their
DNA is the same. Maitre and Number Five were raised each in the same house
by the same person who was raised by the same person in the same house. So
VRT/Marsch tells them that they are different only in their ages and views
them as the SAME personality. This is more of Wolfe's investigation on the
meaning of Identity.

Che attempts to lure Crush out of his protective hollow:
I'd love to hear your ideas about Chenile too. I liked her, although it's
Silk and Oreb who I read the book for, mostly.

Crush mostly doesn't bite:
Learning from my previous unfruitful foray into suggesting Hyacinth's nature
(which turned out to be mostly wrong anyway), I'm hesitant to make
assertions about Chenille's nature without a lot more supporting facts. If I
did, what would we talk about? I'd say what I think. Other's would say they
don't agree or worse that my logic is fundamentally faulty. I will
eventually accumulate the necessary facts, don't doubt it.

Wolfe was playing with a **lot** of subtext in the relationship between Silk
and Oreb. However, since, as you say, you are quite literally minded, I
doubt there is much of interest about them that I can to offer you. Still,
the story of the Eye of Horus at least is an interesting read even if you
don't care that in Wolfe's retelling, Oreb is "the Eye."

--- Crush

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From: Che Monro <flirt at technologist.com>
Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 08:19:52 +0000

>Che attempts to lure Crush out of his protective hollow:

*giggles and hides a smile behind her, um *ahem* his hand, Yes* You know 
they don't call me The Flirt for nothing. ;)

>don't care that in Wolfe's retelling, Oreb is "the Eye."

Oh I must go and look this up. Was Horus the one who got torn up into 
little bits or was that Pas? Or Osiris? The all seeing eye of Horus also 
comes into Lois MacMaster Bujold's work as the symbol of ImpSec, the 
security wing of the Barrayar Imperium. Coincidence? I think not!

It's quite plausible to assume that the Whorl is traversing near Barrayaran 
space and they plant Oreb on board as a secret agent. Nobody will suspect 
an innocent bird of being a spy who watches everything. This would make The 
Outsider... Simon Illyan, the head of ImpSec. Does Bujold ever mention 
spybirds? No, but someone else does. Was it Harry Harrison in The Stainless 
Steal Rat?

But where is Miles in all of this, I hear you ask? I don't know, probably 
lost down in all those tunnels that look alike along with everyone else.

Can anyone disprove this theory for me, please?

Anyhow, thanks for the information on Oreb, it's provided a whole new light 
on the book for me. Um, that's a positive thing, I think. ;)

Che

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