{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3880", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3880, "subject": "The Book of Typhon part two: Silk as Typhon", "messages": 6, "voices": 4, "first": "2003-03-07T04:56:58+00:00", "last": "2003-03-10T02:26:06+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lisa Schaffer-Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-03-07T04:56:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Book of Typhon part two: Silk as Typhon", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi everyone, Don again. This obviously needs a lot of work and \nsupport, but the ideas are sound, I think.\n\nThe Book of Typhon part two: Silk as Typhon\n\n\tThis segment is more speculative than the last since I haven’t gotten \nto a second reading of the Long Sun books. Nevertheless, I am firmly \nconvinced of its correctness overall. My argument is simply that Silk \nis a clone of the monarch Typhon and, by extension, the genetic father \nof Severian who is a clone of Ymar.\n\tLet’s establish some basic facts. First, Silk was an embryo frozen at \nthe time of the Whorl’s launch, and thus from the time of Typhon. \nSecond, Silk is blond, as I’m reasonably sure Typhon is (though I’ve \nnever found a conclusive statement of this). Third, Silk is very tall, \nlike an exultant, and a natural leader, charismatic enough to be known \nall over the Whorl and on Blue. And finally, Wolfe describes Silk as \nhaving a “reddish-blond beard” (Litany of the Long Sun p. 187). So? \nHere is a passage from Graves’ King Jesus describing JC:\n\t“You have a Typhonic, or harvest-red, beard. . .” (KJ p. 221)\nHow coincidental that Wolfe gives Silk a feature that ties him not only \nto sacred kingship but also directly to Typhon.\n\tNow, here are a few rhetorical questions. Why did the White Headed \nOne, Hierax (who most likely really was Hierax, much as Oreb was Scylla \nin SS) attack Silk so violently? Could it be he recognized him? Why \nwas Kypris so helpful to Silk, and so drawn to him? (A tangent \nquestion to this is why did Kypris spend so much time possessing \nHyacinth, who I think was also an embryo. My guess is that Hy is \nKypris, or rather her Urth counterpart and thus Severian’s genetic \nmother.) Why was Silk allowed to merge with Pas? I’ll answer this. \nIt is because Pas couldn’t collect all of his personality that he’d \nscattered. Pas is a scan of Typhon, so the easiest solution is to scan \nTyphon back in to complete Pas. But, as Quetzal says, the jokes of the \ngods are long. The Outsider has had twenty years and an enlightenment \nto work on Silk in Pas’ absence.\n\tSo here is my version of the Plan of Pas. The Whorl flies to wherever \nit is supposed to go. When the time is right, the embryos of Silk and \nHyacinth (not their names in this version) are thawed and brought to \nfruition. They are then possessed by Pas and Kypris and effectively \nbecome Typhon and “Katharine”. Most likely the other “gods” have \nembryonic counterparts as well, but perhaps Typhon pulled a \ndoublecross. But this didn’t happen. Pas is scattered, Silk is thawed \nearly, and the Whorl ends up back where it left from (sorry, couldn’t \nresist). Silk is the Outsider’s long joke, the redemption of Typhon.\n\tThis father-son relationship between Silk and Severian is the \noperative principle in where the “astral” travel takes place in the \nShort Sun books. Silkhorn ends up on Green to seek out Sinew, Horn’s \nson. If you believe Severian is on Green, then he ends up there \nbecause Severian is Silk’s son. This also explains why he ends up on \nthe Red Sun Whorl. It has nothing to do with Rigoglio. Silk’s tie to \nSeverian is what draws him.\n\tI realize that this argument about Silk is not as well documented as \nI’d like, but I haven’t given LS and SS a second read yet. (so many \nthings on my list!) I plan to revise this as well, but in the interest \nof completeness, I’ll send it in this form.\n\nThanks for reading." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2003-03-08T06:58:29+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) The Book of Typhon part two: Silk as Typhon", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don wrote, in part:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "My argument is simply that Silk" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "is a clone of the monarch Typhon <<\n\nHad Silk been a clone of Typhon, then Silk would have looked exactly like\nhim (at least as Typhon looked before he acquired Piaton's body), which is" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "presumably why you wrote:\nNow, here are a few rhetorical questions. Why did the White Headed\nOne, Hierax (who most likely really was Hierax, much as Oreb was Scylla\nin SS) attack Silk so violently? Could it be he recognized him?<<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The painted canvas Silk destroyed at Orchid's was a \"mockery of Campion's\ncelebrated painting of Pas enthroned\". My point is that images of the gods\nwere commonplace on the _Whorl_. Silk was familiar with the image of Pas.\nTyphon had a hang-up about his face, believing that it was necessary to\ninsure continued obedience to the person of the monarch. He believed that so\nstrongly that he accepted a second head rather than give up his own face. Up\nuntil his \"death\", about thirty years before the action in LS, Pas had\nappeared regularly in the sacred windows of Viron and other cities. Many\nindividuals who knew Silk had seen Pas appear in the sacred windows during\ntheir lifetimes. It strains credulity to believe that no one in LS or SS\never even hinted anything along the lines of \"Hey, Silk, you know who you\nlook like?\"\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lisa Schaffer-Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-03-08T17:08:20+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) The Book of Typhon part two: Silk as Typhon", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Friday, March 7, 2003, at 10:58 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\n The painted canvas Silk destroyed at Orchid's was a \"mockery of \nCampion's\ncelebrated painting of Pas enthroned\". My point is that images of the \ngods\nwere commonplace on the _Whorl_. Silk was familiar with the image of \nPas.\nTyphon had a hang-up about his face, believing that it was necessary to\ninsure continued obedience to the person of the monarch. He believed \nthat so\nstrongly that he accepted a second head rather than give up his own \nface. Up\nuntil his \"death\", about thirty years before the action in LS, Pas had\nappeared regularly in the sacred windows of Viron and other cities. \nMany\nindividuals who knew Silk had seen Pas appear in the sacred windows \nduring\ntheir lifetimes. It strains credulity to believe that no one in LS or \nSS\never even hinted anything along the lines of \"Hey, Silk, you know who \nyou\nlook like?\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To which Don replies:\n\nThis has occurred to me, and here is my solution. The Gods in \nmainframe are not actual visual representations of their scans but \narchetypal god figures, unless of course Typhon's wife has snakes for \nhair. The fact that Typhon had a hang-up about his appearance supports \nthis. He was eager to get rid of his second head. Why scan that into \nMainframe? It's a problem for consideration, but it's not fatal. The \nthematic signs IMO point to Silk being Typhon." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lisa Schaffer-Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-03-08T17:14:45+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) The Book of Typhon part two: Silk as Typhon", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Friday, March 7, 2003, at 10:58 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\n\n\nHad Silk been a clone of Typhon, then Silk would have looked exactly \nlike\nhim (at least as Typhon looked before he acquired Piaton's body), \nwhich is\npresumably why you wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Now, here are a few rhetorical questions. Why did the White Headed\nOne, Hierax (who most likely really was Hierax, much as Oreb was Scylla\nin SS) attack Silk so violently? Could it be he recognized him?<<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I realized that I didn't quite reply to your question. When I said \nthat Hierax perhaps recognized Silk, I meant that he recognized him as \nTyphon, not necessarily as Pas. The other Gods had the memories of \ntheir Urth counterparts (as per Kypris' recollections) and they most \ncertainly knew the Plan, or part of it." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2003-03-08T17:22:42+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) The Book of Typhon part two: Silk as Typhon", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 11:08 AM 3/8/2003, you wrote:\nOn Friday, March 7, 2003, at 10:58 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " The painted canvas Silk destroyed at Orchid's was a \"mockery of Campion's\ncelebrated painting of Pas enthroned\". My point is that images of the gods\nwere commonplace on the _Whorl_. Silk was familiar with the image of Pas.\nTyphon had a hang-up about his face, believing that it was necessary to\ninsure continued obedience to the person of the monarch. He believed that so\nstrongly that he accepted a second head rather than give up his own face. Up\nuntil his \"death\", about thirty years before the action in LS, Pas had\nappeared regularly in the sacred windows of Viron and other cities. Many\nindividuals who knew Silk had seen Pas appear in the sacred windows during\ntheir lifetimes. It strains credulity to believe that no one in LS or SS\never even hinted anything along the lines of \"Hey, Silk, you know who you\nlook like?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To which Don replies:\n\nThis has occurred to me, and here is my solution. The Gods in mainframe \nare not actual visual representations of their scans but archetypal god \nfigures, unless of course Typhon's wife has snakes for hair. The fact \nthat Typhon had a hang-up about his appearance supports this. He was \neager to get rid of his second head. Why scan that into Mainframe? It's \na problem for consideration, but it's not fatal. The thematic signs IMO \npoint to Silk being Typhon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Without compleatly buying into your thesis (yet), there might be two \ndifferences between Pas and Silk:\n 1. Pas has two heads, and these are probably stylized to look \nsimilar, unlike the reality.\n 2. Typhon was older and Silk is still young. Especially if \nTyphon/Pas presents himself with godlike white hair, they would not look \nalike unless someone spent a bit of time studying them.\n In all, I think that Pas with two heads would throw anybody off. \nEven if one head looked a lot like Silk's, who would make the connection? \nPas is, after all, Pas! and Silk is just a man.\n FWIW.\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Joshuafalchion", "address": "joshuafalchion at aol.com" }, "date": "2003-03-10T02:26:06+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) The Book of Typhon part two: Silk as Typhon", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hello fellow Wolfeans! I'm new to the Urth group, and trying to catch up \nwith the various correspondence. Don, I liked the discovery in Graves of a \nreference to a red beard as \"Typhonic.\" I had not considered that Silk might \nbe a clone of Typhon; that makes a good deal of sense. I have read the Book \nof the Long Sun only twice, and while I don't ponder the relations in the \nbooks too much (preferring instead the experience of the whole world to wash \nover me), there surely is some direct relationship between Pas and Silk.\n\nAs I said, I'm new, and I'd like my group name to be something that, though a \nsmall reference from Citadel of the Autarch, means something rather more \nsignificant to me (and has nothing to do with Wolfe). Readers of Gene Wolfe, \nof course, won't need any explanation of what my name means.\n\nCall me\n\nthe Falchion\n\nps: what is the advance word on \"The Wizard\" and \"The Knight\"?" } ] } ] }