{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3891", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3891, "subject": "Typhon and Severian", "messages": 5, "voices": 3, "first": "2003-03-10T15:31:48+00:00", "last": "2003-03-11T06:31:49+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2003-03-10T15:31:48+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Typhon and Severian", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don postulates:\nThe only certainty is that Dorcas is Ouen's mother. Ouen denies ever\nimpregnating Katherine, and the only evidence that Ouen could be Severian's\nfather is that they look strikingly similar in profile. (Sword and Citadel,\np 402). This is hardly compelling. In addition, it is thematically weak.\nIf Dorcas is Severian's grandmother then he is committing incest in a manner\nthat makes no sense mythopoeicly. The incest only makes sense if she is his\nsister or his mother. Equally, the archetypes clinging to Severian's\ncharacter point in a different direction. Ouen makes a much stronger\nadoptive father in the vein of Joseph the carpenter, or Sir Hector...\n\nCrush tries to speed Don on his way:\nMythopoetically speaking, (if it is applicable here) Dorcas should be\nSeverian's mother AND sister (as Isis was to Horus).\n\nI'm not sure I see how Ouen works as Hector or Joseph. Malrubius works\nbetter in this role.\n\nHaving not read 'King Jesus' my problems with the\nHerod-Jesus/Typhon-Severian analogy is mythopoetic:\nI do agree that Typhon takes the thematic role of Herod at times - I haven't\ndecided with Typhon's meeting with Severian in 'Urth of the New Sun' more\nclosely parallels Herod and Jesus or Herod and John the Baptist.\n\nAccording to Wolfe, tBotNS is a toying with Sun symbolism. So Severian would\nbe expected to parallel Jesus to some extent as the 'Sun of Righteousness'\n(Malachi 4:2). But how is Severian, as a Sun symbol, a son of Typhon?\nAccording to Graves, Typhon is Set. And both are the dragon that devours\n(kills) the Sun during an eclipse and is killed by Horus. Graves also\nassociates Typhon with the Python of Hera, whom Apollo simultaneously kills\nand appropriates as his servant in prophecy.\n\nSo whether one views Severian as Osirus or Horus or Apollo, how is he\nmythopoetically a son, heir, or descendent of Typhon? Perhaps Graves\njustified this association in 'King Jesus'?\n\n* Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2003-03-10T17:09:30+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Typhon and Severian", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Having not read 'King Jesus' my problems with the\nHerod-Jesus/Typhon-Severian analogy is mythopoetic:\nI do agree that Typhon takes the thematic role of Herod at times - I \nhaven't\ndecided with Typhon's meeting with Severian in 'Urth of the New Sun' more\nclosely parallels Herod and Jesus or Herod and John the Baptist." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have trouble agreeing with this, since Typhon's role with respect to \nSeverian is solidly and beyond question related to Satan's role with Jesus. \nThe resemblance to Herod is going to be, in large part, a matter of Herod \nresembling Satan at times..." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2003-03-10T18:54:06+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Typhon and Severian", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Having not read 'King Jesus' my problems with the\nHerod-Jesus/Typhon-Severian analogy is mythopoetic:\nI do agree that Typhon takes the thematic role of Herod at times - I\nhaven't\ndecided with Typhon's meeting with Severian in 'Urth of the New Sun' more\nclosely parallels Herod and Jesus or Herod and John the Baptist." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Chris shakes his head and says:\nI have trouble agreeing with this, since Typhon's role with respect to\nSeverian is solidly and beyond question related to Satan's role with Jesus.\nThe resemblance to Herod is going to be, in large part, a matter of Herod\nresembling Satan at times...\n\nCrush responds:\nI'm not sure what part you don't agree with, but I'll take a shot at an\nanswer to the best of my ability.\n\nAs do mythological characters in Graves' works, Wolfe's characters\nfrequently (usually) carry multiple thematic roles. So, yes, Typhon's and\nSeverian's meeting in Sword of the Lictor (?) is thematically the Temptation\nof Christ. Typhon holds Severian by the heel and Severian \"crushes\" Typhon's\nhead (Gen 3:15). But these roles occur because Typhon/Python/Set/Satan is\nthe serpent-enemy of the Sun (Apollo, Horus, Christ, etc.).\n\nIMO Typhon's name is the strongest argument that he had something to do with\nthe dimming of Urth's sun since this would establish Typhon's and Severian's\nrelationship as Set and Horus.\n\nBut I don't see how Herod is thematically the enemy of the Sun. Herod the\nGreat maybe (the one who killed the infants in Bethlehem), but not the Herod\nof the trial of Jesus. This Herod is curious about Jesus. He is vaguely\nworried that he might John the Baptist resurrected, and he'd like to have\nJesus perform some miracles on command, but that's the extent of it. Just as\nPilate is suspicious of the Sanhedrin's motives for trying to get him\npersonally involved in Jesus' prosecution, Herod is suspicious of Pilate's\nmotives. Neither the Sanhedrin, nor Pilate, nor Herod, are good stand-ins as\nthe Devil. None wish to be openly identified as Jesus' executioners. All\nthree are in a crisis of choices over which they cannot freely act nor\n(except for Herod) freely extricate themselves. None act with knowledge of\nthe full significance of their actions.\n\nThe thing is that Wolfe might have written the Herod-Typhon parallel for\nreasons not directly connected to Typhon's name or even 'King Jesus'. For\nexample, in \"Calde of the Long Sun\", Silk and Loris have a conversation at\nBlood's house that parallels Jesus' and Pilate's. Why? Loris and his cousins\ntake many other thematic roles in the Long Sun as serpent-enemies, but I\nhave trouble connecting any of these roles to Pilate.\n\nSo, does Typhon's Herodian similarities mean that he has the same\nrelationship to Severian as Herod did to Jesus in 'King Jesus'?\nIs there a genuine Typhon-Herod connection even if it is only in 'King\nJesus'? Don's quote from 'King Jesus' had **Jesus** with a Typhonic beard,\nnot Herod.\n\nI don't know of a Herod-Satan association. If there were one, then I'd be\nmuch more prepared to accept Don's theories.\n\n-- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2003-03-10T19:56:39+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Typhon and Severian", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Crush responds:\nI'm not sure what part you don't agree with, but I'll take a shot at an\nanswer to the best of my ability." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Chris backpedals:\nWhat I don't agree with is that there is a Herod-Typhon connection, and I \nagree strongly with most of what you just said.\n\nI also wouldn't go so far as to say there is a Herod-Satan connection; I \nmerely think that there are a couple of similarities which can lead to \nmistaking a Typhon-Satan connection with a Typhon-Herod association, *if you \nhappen to be looking for it*. Herod, for example, is also a tempter - \nwhether he believes Jesus has the powers he claims or not, he tries to goad \nJesus into using his power (for unworthy ends?). It's not too off the wall \nto see Herod as a somewhat satanic character, imho, but I don't know that \nthis is grounds to say that Herod is a representation or stand-in for Satan \nas such.\n\nIn any event, this probably qualifies as over-analysis, because while the \nJesus/Satan parallel with Severian/Typhon is obvious, it is not *complete*.\n\nPeace,\nChris" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lisa Schaffer-Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-03-11T06:31:49+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Typhon and Severian", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Monday, March 10, 2003, at 11:56 AM, Chris wrote:\nCrush responds:\nI'm not sure what part you don't agree with, but I'll take a shot at \nan\nanswer to the best of my ability." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Chris backpedals:\nWhat I don't agree with is that there is a Herod-Typhon connection, \nand I agree strongly with most of what you just said.\n\nI also wouldn't go so far as to say there is a Herod-Satan connection; \nI merely think that there are a couple of similarities which can lead \nto mistaking a Typhon-Satan connection with a Typhon-Herod \nassociation, *if you happen to be looking for it*. Herod, for example, \nis also a tempter - whether he believes Jesus has the powers he claims \nor not, he tries to goad Jesus into using his power (for unworthy \nends?). It's not too off the wall to see Herod as a somewhat satanic \ncharacter, imho, but I don't know that this is grounds to say that \nHerod is a representation or stand-in for Satan as such.\n\nIn any event, this probably qualifies as over-analysis, because while \nthe Jesus/Satan parallel with Severian/Typhon is obvious, it is not \n*complete*." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don replies quickly as his wife wants to go walk and Latro awaits:\n\nThe Typhon Herod connection is in King Jesus in that Herod wants to \nrevive the cult of Set/Typhon which involves the hierarchy as well of \nthe Goddess. In the book Jesus is a direct descendant of Herod. His \nfather is Herod Antipater, Herod the Great's heir. The connection \nbetween the two books is symbolic rather than parallel." } ] } ] }