{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3892", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3892, "subject": "extra-textual material", "messages": 5, "voices": 4, "first": "2003-03-11T18:15:28+00:00", "last": "2003-03-12T06:34:29+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "maa32", "address": "maa32 at dana.ucc.nau.edu" }, "date": "2003-03-11T18:15:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) extra-textual material", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am very interested in the possibility that Silk is a clone of Typhon (or \nMalrubius) and that Severian and Ymar are genetically related. However, I \nthink ascribing too much weight to details in \"King Jesus\" might be \npotentially misleading. Has Wolfe even read it? Myths tend to survive in \nfragments that are often changed and undergo misprision - perhaps the creative \nmisreadings of these old ideas experienced something resembling convergent \nevolution, and the archetypal figures simply resemble each other since they \nare spawned from a common source instead of from a direct progression from \nGraves to Wolfe\n\nObviously a historical text like Soldier in the Mist can be better understood \nwith the real historical documents in hand - like Herodutus, who I believe \nWolfe mentions in his dedication. However, the Sun books are not truly \nhistorical works - (but they are still mythical, if that makes any sense).\n\nIf Wolfe had inscribed \"for Robert Graves\" or given some other direct evidence \nthat he had been toying with the ideas of King Jesus explicitly, then we could \ngladly make the comparison and use the earlier work to make intertextual \ninterpretations possible, perhaps even likely.\n\nWhich is not to say that the relationships you see aren't really there - it's \njust that I don't think we can make use of one novel to make definitive claims \non the interpretation of another without careful consideration. Remember that \nWolfe is, first and foremost, a writer - and a writer needs to write an \ninteresting, creative story more than he needs to look up ways to rip off \ndescriptions from an earlier writer. Remember that somewhere in there Wolfe \ncreates new things - some of his descriptions are made up on the spot, or else \nhe is simply enacting the task of Pierre Menard, rewriting the story of the \nman whose very life has become a dream of the stories that he reads.\n\nMarc Aramini" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2003-03-11T18:48:28+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) extra-textual material", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marc queries:\nHowever, I think ascribing too much weight to details in \"King Jesus\" might\nbe\npotentially misleading. Has Wolfe even read it?\n\nCrush responds:\nI'd say Don has found the smoking gun that Wolfe HAS read 'King Jesus': That\nis, the color of Silk's and Jesus' beard being explicitly referred in 'King\nJesus' as 'Typhonic\". There are plenty of textual clues associating Silk\nwith Jesus.\n\nDon has not only associated Silk with Typhon but provided an explanation for\nthe mystery of why Silk was **encouraged** to have himself scanned into the\nMainframe and attached to Pas. That Silk is a **clone** of Typhon is\nproblematic - considering how Wolfe has presented clones in tFHoC it is yet\nto be shown that Wolfe would consider a doner-clone relationship to be a\nfather-son relationship. He would more likely consider clones to be\nessentially the same person. But a father-son model would definitely\nparallel that in 'King Jesus'.\n\nNow, if Silk were the son of Typhon and Echidna, it would fit thematically\nsince there are even more clues associating Silk with Hephaestus, the Maker\nGod; which brings us back to Jesus, The Word, who made all things and\nwithout him nothing was made (John 1:3).\n\nThe question of whether Severian is an heir of Typhon is IMO much less well\nestablished. That, in 'King Jesus', Jesus was the son of Herod who was into\nthe worship of Set is not the same as Jesus being a son of Set. There's\n**something** there but it could be that only that Wolfe is sipping from\nthis particular well of Graves' rather than swimming in it.\n\n-- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lisa Schaffer-Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-03-12T06:19:18+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) extra-textual material", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 10:15 AM, maa32 wrote:\nI am very interested in the possibility that Silk is a clone of Typhon \n(or\nMalrubius) and that Severian and Ymar are genetically related. \nHowever, I\nthink ascribing too much weight to details in \"King Jesus\" might be\npotentially misleading. Has Wolfe even read it? Myths tend to \nsurvive in\nfragments that are often changed and undergo misprision - perhaps the \ncreative\nmisreadings of these old ideas experienced something resembling \nconvergent\nevolution, and the archetypal figures simply resemble each other since \nthey\nare spawned from a common source instead of from a direct progression \nfrom\nGraves to Wolfe" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don replies:\nThough I've been guilty of relying too heavily on Graves for my \narguments in the past, I think that these latest claims are based \npretty solidly on clues within the text themselves (typhonic beard \nnotwithstanding.) However, I personally think that Wolfe has read KJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lisa Schaffer-Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-03-12T06:29:20+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) extra-textual material", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 10:48 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nThe question of whether Severian is an heir of Typhon is IMO much less \nwell\nestablished. That, in 'King Jesus', Jesus was the son of Herod who was \ninto\nthe worship of Set is not the same as Jesus being a son of Set. There's\n**something** there but it could be that only that Wolfe is sipping \nfrom\nthis particular well of Graves' rather than swimming in it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Aw contrail mon friar,\n\nMy assertion that Severian is the son of Typhon has very little to do \nwith the KJ parallel. I think the story of Frog establishes pretty \nwell the identity of Ymar as the son of Typhon and there are way too \nmany parallels between Severian and Ymar for me to think that they are \nanything but the same person (genetically). Btw, I should have pointed \nout that in KJ, Herod tries to position himself as an incarnation of \nSet/Typhon, going so far as to wear the golden ass mask of Dora in the \nHoly of Holies. But the KJ reference was only a minor reference to the \nthematic strength of my argument. It was never meant to carry the \nwhole thing.\n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Geller", "address": "dclxvi at dclxvi.best.vwh.net" }, "date": "2003-03-12T06:34:29+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) extra-textual material", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 11 Mar 2003, Lisa Schaffer-Doggett wrote:\nDon replies:\nThough I've been guilty of relying too heavily on Graves for my\narguments in the past, I think that these latest claims are based\npretty solidly on clues within the text themselves (typhonic beard\nnotwithstanding.) However, I personally think that Wolfe has read KJ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would be shocked if he hadn't.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] } ] }