{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3896", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3896, "subject": "Typhon, Sev, Silk", "messages": 19, "voices": 8, "first": "2003-03-12T20:35:20+00:00", "last": "2003-03-15T02:46:17+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2003-03-12T20:35:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon, Sev, Silk", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It has been accepted by most here for a long time that the temptation of\nSeverian by Typhon on the mountain mimics that of Jesus by Satan. Although\nWolfe has maintained that Sev is not a stand-in for Jesus, the fact remains\nthat Sev goes on to become a redeemer, of sorts. He becomes the\nrepresentative of Mankind on Urth, 'saving' it to death by water from death\nby ice. He does this by mumbo-jumbo, somehow mystically becoming a New Sun\nto revitalize the old sun, which has somehow been damaged, presumably in\nconsequence of Man's arrogance. It is believed by some that Typhon is the\nperson responsible for the damage to the sun.\n\nJesus and Satan are at antipodes, mythologically and theologically. If I am\nstating the obvious, it is because I think it is being overlooked. Jesus is\nin no part Satan. For the temptation correspondence to hold up, neither can\nSev be in any part Typhon. For Sev to be a clone of a bastard child of\nTyphon (who was Ymar's mother, btw?), he would have to be, in some sense,\nthe son of Satan. Sev, like Jesus, resisted the temptation but went further;\nhe killed his would-be benefactor, something Jesus couldn't/wouldn't do. You\ncan't just kill the Devil, or the game is over.\n\nTyphon was the baddest man in the whole damn galaxy, so bad that the\nIncreate apparently thought it worth the death of millions of innocents on\nUrth to undo the great wrong he had done. Silk, we are told (ad nauseam), is\na veritable saint. He is so holy that the Outsider (aka, the Increate)\nintervenes directly in his life, time and again. How can Silk be a clone of\nTyphon? They are whorls apart, mythologically and theologically.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Geller", "address": "dclxvi at dclxvi.best.vwh.net" }, "date": "2003-03-12T21:02:47+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Typhon, Sev, Silk", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 12 Mar 2003, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nIt has been accepted by most here for a long time that the temptation of\nSeverian by Typhon on the mountain mimics that of Jesus by Satan. Although\nWolfe has maintained that Sev is not a stand-in for Jesus, the fact remains\nthat Sev goes on to become a redeemer, of sorts." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is consonant with orthodox Chriatianity, as I understand it.\n\nSeverian is experiencing (perhaps 'is being exerpeinced by' is a more\naccurate way to put it) the Mystical Body of Christ. He is thus reflects\nan echo or a shadow of Christ, while himself being a seperate person.\n\nIn the same sense that (by orthodox Christian thought, as I understand it)\nKrishna or Osiris or Dionysus or any of those guys is a foreshadowing of\nChrist incarnate in the person of Jesus son of Mary, that is reflects an\necho or shadow behind the point event of the incarnation, Severian\nreflects an echo or shadow in whatever time-like direction he is from the\nunique Incarnation.\n\nThis whole foreshadowing idea is really elegant, I have to say. I don't\nknow if I am about to incoporate it into my personal view of the World at\nall, but it is sort of nifty.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Brett M. Grace", "address": "bgrace at mac.com" }, "date": "2003-03-13T01:02:03+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Typhon, Sev, Silk", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "perhaps 'is being exerpeinced by' is a more\naccurate way to put it" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " This is very nice ^^^ but the reply is mostly directed to Roy.\n\n I think your point is that Satan and Jesus are categorically \ndifferent (granted!), so it's incoherent to have actors who participate \nin both categories. But... Severian was a torturer and Jesus was a \ncarpenter. I think that we can still say that Severian is messianic \nwithout going on to argue that, therefore, the Messiah is a torturer. \nSo presumably you accept that Severian is already categorically \ndifferent from Jesus--but that the categorical difference is not so \ngreat that Severian can't have messianic qualities. Likewise, Typhon in \nthe temptation scene is satanic, not Satan. But that's just one of his \nfaces (argh, sorry)--for example, Wolfe seems interested in political \neconomy, the tension between benign monarchy, democracy, and fascism. \nIt should be possible to talk about that without reference to the fact \nthat Typhon reeks of brimstone. I'm not normally a fan of literary \nwishy washiness but ruling out the Graves thesis on principle seems \nunnecessarily reductionist.\n\n Prior to the recent discussion on clones and the influence of \nGraves, I think most people had generally accepted the idea that the New \nTestament informed the New Sun and that the Old Testament informed the \nLong Sun. Viron is Israel, Silk is Elijah (as my wife observed: Google \nfor elijah, raven), etc.\n\n If Silk is an answer to Grave's Jesus, well, that stuff doesn't go \naway. Don's theory isn't the key that closes other doors. (I don't \nclaim he says it does but if I've read Roy correctly, he may think so.)\n\n Personally, I don't buy the everybody-is-clone thesis yet, because I \ndon't quite see the point. Somebody more passionately attached to the \nsubject can argue how Typhon, Silk, and Severian being genetically \nidentical advances the Lupine project. I could propose a theory, but it \nwould lack conviction...\n\nBMG" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Josh Geller wrote:\nOn Wed, 12 Mar 2003, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It has been accepted by most here for a long time that the temptation of\nSeverian by Typhon on the mountain mimics that of Jesus by Satan. Although\nWolfe has maintained that Sev is not a stand-in for Jesus, the fact remains\nthat Sev goes on to become a redeemer, of sorts.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is consonant with orthodox Chriatianity, as I understand it.\n\nSeverian is experiencing (perhaps 'is being exerpeinced by' is a more\naccurate way to put it) the Mystical Body of Christ. He is thus reflects\nan echo or a shadow of Christ, while himself being a seperate person.\n\nIn the same sense that (by orthodox Christian thought, as I understand it)\nKrishna or Osiris or Dionysus or any of those guys is a foreshadowing of\nChrist incarnate in the person of Jesus son of Mary, that is reflects an\necho or shadow behind the point event of the incarnation, Severian\nreflects an echo or shadow in whatever time-like direction he is from the\nunique Incarnation.\n\nThis whole foreshadowing idea is really elegant, I have to say. I don't\nknow if I am about to incoporate it into my personal view of the World at\nall, but it is sort of nifty.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n.\n\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Bollen", "address": "abollen at internode.on.net" }, "date": "2003-03-13T04:47:52+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Typhon, Sev, Silk", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Sev, like Jesus, resisted the temptation but went further;\nhe killed his would-be benefactor, something Jesus couldn't/wouldn't do." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "can't just kill the Devil, or the game is over." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sev's lack of meekness is almost a critique of Christ by Wolfe. If I were a\nChristian, there's one scene I'd find quite disturbing - his arrest in\nUOTNS. He fights the soldiers savagely, killing at least one (?). When he\narrives at the Typhon-era Matachin Tower, he kills the Governess, almost\nimmediately & with almost no discussion. Followed, of course, by the slaying\nof Typhon. The contrast with Christ's arrest and execution must be\ndeliberate.\n\nI'd not be surprised to find that Wolfe regards Christ as something of a\nwimp, and I'm pretty sure he regards the pre-Horn Silk in the same way." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "*THAT* Matt Weber", "address": "mweber at library.berkeley.edu" }, "date": "2003-03-13T06:04:53+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Typhon, Sev, Silk", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew :" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sev's lack of meekness is almost a critique of Christ by Wolfe. If I were a\nChristian, there's one scene I'd find quite disturbing - his arrest in\nUOTNS. He fights the soldiers savagely, killing at least one (?). When he\narrives at the Typhon-era Matachin Tower, he kills the Governess, almost\nimmediately & with almost no discussion. Followed, of course, by the slaying\nof Typhon. The contrast with Christ's arrest and execution must be\ndeliberate.\n\nI'd not be surprised to find that Wolfe regards Christ as something of a\nwimp, and I'm pretty sure he regards the pre-Horn Silk in the same way." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think you're off base here. Wolfe is presenting Severian as a \nhuman being who is in the process of becoming more Christ-like (i.e. \nas a Christian). Severian's arrest occurs near the beginning of his \njourney, if I'm remembering correctly. His actions at the arrest \nremind me more of St. Peter at Gethsemane than of Christ.\n\nIf Wolfe is indeed the Catholic he claims to be, regarding Christ as \na wimp would pose something of a problem of faith.\n\n\n\nMatt\n\nSi le Roi m'avait donné\nParis, sa grand' ville,\nEt qu'il me fallût quitter\nL'amour de ma mie,\nJe dirais au roi Henri:\n\"Reprenez votre Paris:\nJ'aime mieux ma mie, au gué,\nJ'aime mieux ma mie.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2003-03-13T06:20:37+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Typhon, Sev, Silk", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I tend to agree, though for not quite the same reasons.\n\nChrist is essentially what you could call the complete package: the \nsuccessful integration of all of the messianic attributes into the ultimate \nman. Severian doesn't seem on his way to Christ-consciousness, however. \nRather, he seems to exemplify given attributes and not others; he is the \nright answer to the given circumstances/problems of the world at the time, \nbut not for all problems at all times. He is the virtuous destroyer who \nclears away the old to create the new, but if you choose a different \nspiritual \"axis\", if you will, Severian tends to be more or less neutral and \nnot especially inclined to become otherwise.\n\nChris\n\nMatt said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think you're off base here. Wolfe is presenting Severian as a human \nbeing who is in the process of becoming more Christ-like (i.e. as a \nChristian). Severian's arrest occurs near the beginning of his journey, if \nI'm remembering correctly. His actions at the arrest remind me more of St. \nPeter at Gethsemane than of Christ.\n\nIf Wolfe is indeed the Catholic he claims to be, regarding Christ as a wimp \nwould pose something of a problem of faith." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Bollen", "address": "abollen at internode.on.net" }, "date": "2003-03-13T07:10:44+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Typhon, Sev, Silk", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Matt says:\n\nI think you're off base here. Wolfe is presenting Severian as a\nhuman being who is in the process of becoming more Christ-like (i.e.\nas a Christian). Severian's arrest occurs near the beginning of his\njourney, if I'm remembering correctly. His actions at the arrest\nremind me more of St. Peter at Gethsemane than of Christ.\n\nIf Wolfe is indeed the Catholic he claims to be, regarding Christ as\na wimp would pose something of a problem of faith.\n\n-----------------------\n\nWell, it happens very late in the story, really. By then, he's been\nconfirmed as the New Sun, and almost completed his brief \"ministry\" on\nTyphon-era Urth. If lethal self-defence and the slaying of evil prison\nwarders & tyrants are un-Christian acts, then it seems he still has a long\nway to go in his imitation of Christ by the time the story draws to a close.\n\nPerhaps Wolfe's point may be that men (even paragons like Severian) are\nbound by the evil choices of fallen humanity; and Christ's sacrifice was a\nunique act of compassion by God, not to be repeated. To be a Peter is the\npracticable summit of human aspiration. Or something.\n\nMaybe he would take a view that the important lessons for humanity in\nChrist's day were compassion & a degree of selflessness, qualities which I\nbelieve Wolfe in some interview rightly asserted as being lacking in\nconventional ethics pre-Christ. Sev's society on the other hand is quite\nemphatically post-Christian, IMO: it is rough & tough, because of resource\nconstraints, but moderated in many ways by something like a Christian ethic.\nThe Byzantine strand in the underpinning of the fictional world shows\nthrough: the society \"feels\" like Byzantium under one of the more\nenlightened, military emperors, not the hell-on-earth which was the\npre-Christian Roman empire. Such a (potentially, partially) \"redeemed\" world\nneeds struggle against evil, more than a spectacular act of love like\nChrist's.\n\nBut I find it easier to believe that Wolfe simply views active struggle\nagainst evil, where possible, as morally superior to passive resistance.\nExpressing that view in a story paralleling Christ's arrest & execution is\nthe kind of thing which IMO lifts Wolfe out of his genre.\n\nIt also, of course, raises doubts about his orthodoxy. In 1st C Jerusalem,\nwould he have been a Zealot, or a Christian?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Bollen", "address": "abollen at internode.on.net" }, "date": "2003-03-13T08:29:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon, Sev, Silk", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matt says:\n\nI think you're off base here. Wolfe is presenting Severian as a\nhuman being who is in the process of becoming more Christ-like (i.e.\nas a Christian). Severian's arrest occurs near the beginning of his\njourney, if I'm remembering correctly. His actions at the arrest\nremind me more of St. Peter at Gethsemane than of Christ.\n\nIf Wolfe is indeed the Catholic he claims to be, regarding Christ as\na wimp would pose something of a problem of faith.\n\n-----------------------" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Well, it happens very late in the story, really. By then, he's been\n confirmed as the New Sun, and almost completed his brief \"ministry\" on\n Typhon-era Urth. If lethal self-defence and the slaying of evil prison\n warders & tyrants are un-Christian acts, then it seems he still has a long\n way to go in his imitation of Christ by the time the story draws to a\nclose.\n\n Perhaps Wolfe's point may be that men (even paragons like Severian) are\n bound by the evil choices of fallen humanity; and Christ's sacrifice was a\n unique act of compassion by God, not to be repeated. To be a Peter is the\n practicable summit of human aspiration. Or something.\n\n Maybe he would take a view that the important lessons for humanity in\n Christ's day were compassion & a degree of selflessness, qualities which I\n believe Wolfe in some interview rightly asserted as being lacking in\n conventional ethics pre-Christ. Sev's society on the other hand is quite\n emphatically post-Christian, IMO: it is rough & tough, because of resource\n constraints, but moderated in many ways by something like a Christian\nethic.\n The Byzantine strand in the underpinning of the fictional world shows\n through: the society \"feels\" like Byzantium under one of the more\n enlightened, military emperors, not the hell-on-earth which was the\n pre-Christian Roman empire. Such a (potentially, partially) \"redeemed\"\nworld\n needs struggle against evil, more than a spectacular act of love like\n Christ's.\n\n But I find it easier to believe that Wolfe simply views active struggle\n against evil, where possible, as morally superior to passive resistance.\n Expressing that view in a story paralleling Christ's arrest & execution is\n the kind of thing which IMO lifts Wolfe out of his genre.\n\n It also, of course, raises doubts about his orthodoxy. In 1st C Jerusalem,\n would he have been a Zealot, or a Christian?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2003-03-13T19:26:08+00:00", "subject": "FW: (urth) Typhon, Sev, Silk", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "NOTE: Dan'l is apparently having some sort of difficulty affecting his\nability to post to the list, so he responded to my post offlist. The text\nbetween the dashed lines is his.\n\nNOTE 2: I sent this last night, but it bounced. What's going on?\n----------------------------------------------------------------------------\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nTo: Roy C. Lackey \nDate: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 2:49 PM\nSubject: FW: (urth) Typhon, Sev, Silk\n\n\nHi.\n\nCurrently unable to post because of address stupidity, so replying\nin person. If you feel like responding to any of this on list feel\nfree.\n\nFirst a \"bravo!\" to your main thesis -- Sev as Typhon's son simply does\nnot work for precisely the thematic reasons you put forth. (I also\nwrote,\nbut could not post, a note on the question of just where Don believes\nall these clones are coming from -- Silk-as-a-clone-of-Typhon is of\ncourse an exception to this question -- but where are all these,\napparently\nfresh and viable, clones of Ymar coming from, a chiliad later, and how\ndid they get growed, e.g., who put the one that grew into Severian into\nKatherine's belly? Etc.)\n\nSo I totally agree that far.\n\n\nI have a slight complaint with this: \"You can't just kill the Devil,\nor the game is over.\" This kind of trivializes the whole Problem Of\nEvil[tm] as a game God is playing with humans; Wolfe, as a Catholic\nChristian, won't buy that approach for a New York minute." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Typhon was the baddest man in the whole damn galaxy," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Grin." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "so bad that the Increate apparently thought it worth the death\nof millions of innocents on Urth to undo the great wrong he had\ndone." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ummm ... I don't think this is quite accurate, for two reasons.\n\nFirst, I'm pretty sure it's the Hieros, not the Increate, who have\nsentenced Urth to isolation and de-Sol-ation, cosmic quarantine, etc.\nThough of course one can then turn around and say, \"Yeah, but they\nwork for the Increate\" -- but is there any direct hint that the\nIncreate has commanded this thing?\n\nSecond, though, I have the distinct impression that it is the\nwarlike (or colonialistic?) tendencies of humanity-in-general that\nresult in the wounding of the Old Sun -- Typhon, I gather, is\n\"responsible\" more as an \"epitome\" of the Old Adam than as a\nunique case." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Silk, we are told (ad nauseam), is a veritable saint. He is\nso holy that the Outsider (aka, the Increate) intervenes\ndirectly in his life, time and again. How can Silk be a\nclone of Typhon? They are whorls apart, mythologically and\ntheologically." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Two answers to this, one theological (i.e., thematic) and one\ntechnological (i.e., stfnal).\n\nStfnally speaking, I don't think Wolfe would propound a \"genetics\nis destiny\" approach to cloning -- that is, _if_ Silk were a\nclone of the original Typhon, which I agree is a debateable\nclaim though I tend to think it has merit, there is no reason to\nassume that he would grow up to be the same kind of personality\nas Typhon, any more than identical twins are \"the same\" person.\n\nThematically ... well, that's a little harder to explain, but it\nseems to make sense at a thematic level. Typhon is terribly\nconcerned about keeping his true face (which is why he wants a\nwhole-head transplant rather than a brain transplant); when we\nfind that he has designated this body, Silk's, for his own use,\nI think we're supposed to conclude that it has his face. Silk's\n\"mutant\" leadership abilities may be precisely the \"face of\ncommand\" that Typhon is so worried about. (The \"true parents\" of\nSilk's vision while buried dead-alive could, as has been pointed\nout, easily be Typhon's parents...)\n The Outsider intervenes, in various ways, in everyone's life;\nor they would have no life, no hope. It has been suggested that\nLong/Short tells, as an underlying or hidden story, of the Outsider's\nplan for the salvation of Typhon/Pas ... If Severian is not \"really\"\nChrist, but someone (unknowingly) living out an imitatio Christi,\nthen Typhon is not really Satan: and therefore not beyond at least\nthe possibility of redemption.\n ... well, wait: the Typhon on Urth probably is; he explicitly\nrejects, not once but several times, the Conciliator. But Pas is\nanother question entirely ... we don't know when Typhon was scanned,\nwhether it was before or after he encountered Severian for the first\ntime (on his timeline), do we?\n\n--Dan'l/Blattid\n----------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nTyphon had to have been scanned and the _Whorl_ launched _before_ his first\nencounter with Sev. Typhon was already besieged on his mountain at that\npoint and had no ship available to get him off the planet; there were many\nsuch ships aboard the _Whorl_. As Sev was able to prophesy to his guards, in\nURTH, judging from the progress of the work left to do on the mountain,\nTyphon would die behind his curtain not too long after that encounter.\n\nIt's unclear from the text whether it was Typhon or agents of the Increate\nwho caused the wounding of the sun. What is clear, in LICTOR, is that before\nTyphon's reign there was no need of a New Sun. Typhon was no Savior, and the\n_Whorl_ was not launched to make things right with the Increate. He was part\nof the Problem, not the Solution. His was the evil personality scanned into\nMainframe. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, in LS/SS to indicate that\nTyphon/Pas \"got religion\" or otherwise underwent some sort of miraculous\ntransformation from sinner to saint. Garbage in; garbage out.\n\nWhatever plans Typhon may have had for any hypothetical clone/enhanced\nembryo, there is no mechanism in the text(s) that will allow me to believe\nthat he planned to leave that ship otherwise than as the same megalomaniac\nwho launched it. That Pas _seems_ to be a much more benign figure than\nTyphon, I won't argue with; but how did he get that way, if he is? To say\nthat the Outsider reformed his scanned personality is a copout; the Outsider\nmight as well have done it back on Urth and avoided the whole ugly mess and\nthe destruction of thousands of lives lost to Typhon's machinations.\n\nBut I'm straying from the subject.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2003-03-13T21:11:03+00:00", "subject": "Re: FW: (urth) Typhon, Sev, Silk", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for passing this on, good post.\n\nDan'l said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have a slight complaint with this: \"You can't just kill the Devil,\nor the game is over.\" This kind of trivializes the whole Problem Of\nEvil[tm] as a game God is playing with humans; Wolfe, as a Catholic\nChristian, won't buy that approach for a New York minute." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know that it trivializes it, but it seems off. I believe that if \nWolfe believes in Satan, it's as an archetypal figure, a feature of the \nworld. You can't kill the archetype, you can only kill manifestations of the \narchetype (which Severian does). That is, until the second \ncoming/judgment/end-of-the-universe I suppose, where you're free to start \nover by different rules and tell Satan he's not allowed to play.\n\nIn this sense the situation of Jesus was different than Severian's, and I \ndon't think any criticism of Jesus was intended.\n\nAlso from Dan'l:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think we're supposed to conclude that it has his face. Silk's\n\"mutant\" leadership abilities may be precisely the \"face of\ncommand\" that Typhon is so worried about. (The \"true parents\" of\nSilk's vision while buried dead-alive could, as has been pointed\nout, easily be Typhon's parents...)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This, really, is what has me almost convinced. What I don't understand, \nthough, is if Typhon had the technology to scan his personality and he had \nclones to work with, why didn't he use them earlier back on Urth? Unless he \nbelieved in a soul which wouldn't be transferred by the scanning process... \nin which case, Typhon transferring himself to a body (Silk's or a \nhypothetical clone) wouldn't be intended as a way for Typhon to live on as \nTyphon, but rather an attempt to create a biological successor, a \"son\" who \nwould be exactly like his father (who after all was perfect in his own \nmind).\n\nThis doesn't seem impossible, but leaves me with doubts.\n\nContinuing on to Roy's comments:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mainframe. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, in LS/SS to indicate that\nTyphon/Pas \"got religion\" or otherwise underwent some sort of miraculous\ntransformation from sinner to saint. Garbage in; garbage out." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Pas \"got religion\" in the sense that he became part of one, and began to \nplay the role. I have a pet suspicion that Typhon may have actually tailored \nthe \"Pas\" personality to fit its particular role by tweaking or pruning here \nand there, rather than just making a perfect duplicate of his own \npersonality; I don't believe there's enough backing evidence for me to make \na solid case for it, though. What *does* seem apparent is that Pas behaves a \nlittle differently from Typhon, but I think this can be accounted for in the \nfact that really we didn't get to see an awful lot of Typhon and his \npersonal life in NS, and the circumstances were different." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "who launched it. That Pas _seems_ to be a much more benign figure than\nTyphon, I won't argue with; but how did he get that way, if he is?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe there is an important answer to this, even disregarding what I \njust said above, and it fits thematically and in terms of common sense. \nThere is a recurring theme in LS about people/things who take on roles, and \n*become* the part they intended to play. Silk does his best to *act* like \nthe Calde, not realizing at first that this is all there is to *being* the \nCalde. Other examples could be brought up, but the most direct reference to \nthis is when someone asks what would happen if a demon tried to impersonate \na god. The answer is that they would *become* the god they were trying to \nimpersonate. How did the \"gods\" become gods in the first place? Well, you \ncould say they started out as demons trying to impersonate gods. Not \nall-good or even particularly nice gods in many respects - the pantheon as I \nunderstand it was intended to keep the passengers divided and at odds with \neach other, rather than unify them - but at the same time with *some* good \nattributes, enough of them to at least inspire some worship.\n\nAnd, in acting out those attributes, they absorbed/became them.\n\nChris" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Geller", "address": "dclxvi at dclxvi.best.vwh.net" }, "date": "2003-03-13T21:22:39+00:00", "subject": "Re: FW: (urth) Typhon, Sev, Silk", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 13 Mar 2003, Chris wrote:\n [...] I believe that if\nWolfe believes in Satan," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " it's as an archetypal figure, a feature of the\nworld." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought he was a Catholic, not a Jungian or some other kind of newager.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2003-03-13T22:09:26+00:00", "subject": "Re: FW: (urth) Typhon, Sev, Silk", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Briefly," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " [...] I believe that if\nWolfe believes in Satan," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's more variation among Christians than you might think, especially \namong the bad 'uns that read a lot of old books. Whether you call them \n\"variations\" or \"heresies\" depends on when/where you live.\n\nI think Wolfe believes in a Satan. I just chose not to take it for granted." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " it's as an archetypal figure, a feature of the\nworld." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I thought he was a Catholic, not a Jungian or some other kind of newager." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was thinking more in terms of the original Hebrew concept of Satan than \nJung directly, but Jung isn't too bad a fit (I believe he studied qabbala \namong other things). The concept of Satan (and the angels, in general) has \nbeen bent and reworked quite a bit to get to the devil-figure most people \nautomatically think of today - but that's getting into a long digression. \nCatholics, especially free-thinking ones, aren't necessarily going to think \nof it the same simplistic way as your average fundamentalist." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Geller", "address": "dclxvi at dclxvi.best.vwh.net" }, "date": "2003-03-13T22:29:47+00:00", "subject": "Re: FW: (urth) Typhon, Sev, Silk", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 13 Mar 2003, Chris wrote:\nBriefly," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " [...] I believe that if\nWolfe believes in Satan," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There's more variation among Christians than you might think, especially\namong the bad 'uns that read a lot of old books. Whether you call them\n\"variations\" or \"heresies\" depends on when/where you live." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think Wolfe believes in a Satan. I just chose not to take it for granted." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " it's as an archetypal figure, a feature of the\nworld." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I thought he was a Catholic, not a Jungian or some other kind of\nnewager." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I was thinking more in terms of the original Hebrew concept of Satan than\nJung directly, but Jung isn't too bad a fit (I believe he studied qabbala\namong other things)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Excuse me?\n\nI assume you are talking about the Book of Job.\n\nHa-Shatan, the term used in the Book of Job, means 'the adversary'.\nIt is not a proper name.\n\nIf you get into Qabalah a bit you discover that this is the name of an\noffice, which is filled by various archangels in shifts, and that the one\nwho was filling it at the time of the Book of Job was the archangel aka\nGabriel.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2003-03-13T23:11:13+00:00", "subject": "Fwd: FW: FW: (urth) Typhon, Sev, Silk", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Posting for Dan'l, only a couple brief comments of my own." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Still can't post." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I have a slight complaint with this: \"You can't just kill the Devil,\nor\nthe game is over.\" This kind of trivializes the whole Problem Of\nEvil[tm] as a game God is playing with humans; Wolfe, as a Catholic\nChristian, won't buy that approach for a New York minute." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't know that it trivializes it, but it seems off. I believe that\nif\nWolfe believes in Satan, it's as an archetypal figure, a feature of\nthe\nworld." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My first reaction was to echo Josh's \"If?\" but I understand (or think\nI do) what you're getting at, after your additional remarks. I think\nI agree, to some extent, that Wolfe tends toward something resembling\nthe traditional Hebrew idea of \"the satan,\" but that same tradition\nalso had very real demons (like the ones Christ went around driving\nout; like Tiamat and Beelzebul and such) - indeed, by the time the NT\nwas written \"the satan\" had become the distinct person, Satan, to whom\nLuke's Jesus refers several times (notably in the 'house divided'\nbit and in \"I saw Satan fall from Heaven;\" whether this Satan is also\nthe \"devil\" who tempts Jesus in the wilderness can be argued). As\na rather conservative Catholic christian, Wolfe is not likely to demur\nfrom the relatively-clear witness of the NT on the matter." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You can't kill the archetype, you can only kill manifestations\nof the archetype (which Severian does). That is, until the\nsecond coming/judgment/end-of-the-universe I suppose, where\nyou're free to start over by different rules and tell Satan\nhe's not allowed to play." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ah, yes, the Cosmic Reset Button ...\n\n[...]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What I don't understand, though, is if Typhon had the\ntechnology to scan his personality and he had clones to work\nwith, why didn't he use them earlier back on Urth? Unless he\nbelieved in a soul which wouldn't be transferred by the\nscanning process ... in which case, Typhon transferring\nhimself to a body (Silk's or a hypothetical clone) wouldn't\nbe intended as a way for Typhon to live on as Typhon, but\nrather an attempt to create a biological successor, a \"son\"\nwho would be exactly like his father (who after all was\nperfect in his own mind)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "An interesting analysis, but one that does not, I think,\ntake sufficient account of Typhon's personality as presented\nin the texts ... It seems that, unlike the process that\nproduced Mister Million in 5HC, the scanning process in LS\nis non-destructive. (Kypris says as much when she tells Silk\nthat he can be scanned and still continue with his Whorl-ly\nlife.)\n\nSo: suppose Typhon produces a clone, then scans his own\npersonality into it. The result would be two Typhons running\naround, a situation which neither, given his monstrous ego,\nwould find tolerable. There have been plenty of stories about\nsomeone doing pretty much that and then the main conflict\nis between the original and the duplicate ... They would\nnot be willing to share power, so there _would_ be a struggle.\nIf Typhon-2 wins, Typhon-1 loses; if Typhon-1 wins, Typhon-2\nis gone, and the whole process is for nothing. In short,\nthere is nothing to be gained.\n\nBut wait! Suppose, then, that Typhon-1 went ahead and made\nthe clone, scanned himself into it, and then put it into the\nsame kind of \"sleep\" as the \"Sleepers\" on the Whorl, until\nthe death of Typhon-1? That won't do, for two reasons: first,\nbecause it still involves his dying, which Typhon clearly\nfinds intolerable; and second, because Typhon-2 would not be\na full duplicate of Typhon-1; all experience from the time of\nscanning to the moment of death would be lost -- again\nintolerable.\n\nWe can, I think, take it as given that Typhon is smart enough\n(and sufficiently aware of his own nature) to work all this\nout. So he comes up with the Piaton Process, which (as it\ndoesn't involve him dying at all) he finds infinitely preferable.\n\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Re: both responses, yes, Satan as \"role\" is more or less what I was getting \nat.\n\nRe: Dan'l's analysis below, I don't think it disagrees with what I did say; \nthe key point in both ways of describing it is that the copied Typhon is not \nTHE Typhon. He achieves no personal, subjective immortality out of the deal \nand thus resorts to Piaton. This makes a difference w.r.t. his motives." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Weber", "address": "mweber at library.berkeley.edu" }, "date": "2003-03-13T23:56:28+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Typhon, Sev, Silk", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 06:10 PM 3/13/03 +1100, you wrote:\nPerhaps Wolfe's point may be that men (even paragons like Severian) are\nbound by the evil choices of fallen humanity; and Christ's sacrifice was a\nunique act of compassion by God, not to be repeated. To be a Peter is the\npracticable summit of human aspiration. Or something." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this hits closer to the point: however far Severian has come in \nhis Bildung, he has so far still to go! If anything, including this kind \nof episode so close to the end of the narrative emphasizes that Severian is \n*not* intended to be a Christ-analogue." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Maybe he would take a view that the important lessons for humanity in\nChrist's day were compassion & a degree of selflessness, qualities which I\nbelieve Wolfe in some interview rightly asserted as being lacking in\nconventional ethics pre-Christ. Sev's society on the other hand is quite\nemphatically post-Christian, IMO: it is rough & tough, because of resource\nconstraints, but moderated in many ways by something like a Christian ethic.\nThe Byzantine strand in the underpinning of the fictional world shows\nthrough: the society \"feels\" like Byzantium under one of the more\nenlightened, military emperors, not the hell-on-earth which was the\npre-Christian Roman empire. Such a (potentially, partially) \"redeemed\" world\nneeds struggle against evil, more than a spectacular act of love like\nChrist's." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, there are justifications for this in Catholic and Reformed theology, \nusually in terms of war or the state power as an ordination of \nGod. Augustine had the just-war theory, and Luther took \"render unto \nCaesar\" to mean that the secular power should be complied with even if what \nit required was sinful when undertaken under a person's own volition (the \nexception, of course, being when you had a religion to reform ;)). I'm \nnot all that familiar with the theology of violence, though, and I'll let \nsomeone else address the orthodoxy or heterodoxy of Wolfe's putative views." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But I find it easier to believe that Wolfe simply views active struggle\nagainst evil, where possible, as morally superior to passive resistance.\nExpressing that view in a story paralleling Christ's arrest & execution is\nthe kind of thing which IMO lifts Wolfe out of his genre." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I said above, my impression is that the parallel is there for the sake \nof contrast. And I do think it matters for whose interest the action is \nundertaken: e.g. it seems more in line with Christian morality to take up \narms to prevent someone else from being oppressed rather than in self-defense." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It also, of course, raises doubts about his orthodoxy. In 1st C Jerusalem,\nwould he have been a Zealot, or a Christian?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The apostle Simon (Zealotes) was both. I can't recall whether he was ever \nreally rebuked for his Zealotry.\n\n\nMatthew Weber\nCuratorial Assistant\nMusic Library\nUniversity of California, Berkeley\n\nHitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves \nbe stayed.\n The Holy Bible (The Old Testament): _The Book of Job_, chapter \n38, verse 11" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2003-03-14T17:08:06+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Typhon, Sev, Silk", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Non-theologian Crush swims beyond his depth....\n\n\nAndrew Bollen gathers wool responding to Roy and Matt Weber:\n\"I'd not be surprised to find that Wolfe regards Christ as something of a\nwimp, and I'm pretty sure he regards the pre-Horn Silk in the same way...\"\nAND\n\"If lethal self-defense and the slaying of evil prison warders & tyrants are\nun-Christian acts, then it seems he still has a long way to go in his\nimitation of Christ by the time the story draws to a close.\"\n\nCrush responds:\nThe Jesus of the Gospels fulfills the role of the Messiah as suffering\nservant and sacrificial victim. This is because, in the theology of\nsacrifice in all religions, the victim **gives** itself willingly for the\npetitioner. This is still seen in Bull Fights which of course are not much\nas far as fights go but are more of a pageant sacrifice with the religious\nsignificance stripped away. A bull that uses cunning to take out the\nmatadors and picadors is considered by Bull Fight fans guilty of the\nequivalent of unsportsman-like conduct. For an example of this, see the book\n\"Eyewitness to History\" for the 1950s news article on a bull that insisted\non figuring out how to win a bull fight - the crowd became quite angry and\nconsidered the bull a cowardly spoiler.\n\nHOWEVER\nChristian theology recognizes another coming of the Messiah (Orthodox Jewish\ntheology as well if one removes the word 'another') that is not meek. This\nis the coming expressed in many of the Old Testament Messianic texts, Paul\nin a Thessalonians letter and John in Revelation. So maybe Severian is a\n**kind** of Second Coming.\n\nAnd what then is Silk?\n:)\n\n-- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Bollen", "address": "abollen at internode.on.net" }, "date": "2003-03-14T17:27:42+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Typhon, Sev, Silk", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush bravely ventures into theology; I though clueless must follow .." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Christian theology recognizes another coming of the Messiah (Orthodox\nJewish\ntheology as well if one removes the word 'another') that is not meek. This\nis the coming expressed in many of the Old Testament Messianic texts, Paul\nin a Thessalonians letter and John in Revelation. So maybe Severian is a\n**kind** of Second Coming." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I guess that's kind of what I was thinking, or at least one of the things I\nwas thinking.\n\nDoesn't Jesus say somewhere that next time, he will come with a sword?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Weber", "address": "mweber at library.berkeley.edu" }, "date": "2003-03-14T17:36:46+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Typhon, Sev, Silk", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 04:27 AM 3/15/03 +1100, Andrew wrote:\nDoesn't Jesus say somewhere that next time, he will come with a sword?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He said in the First Coming \"I came not to send peace, but a sword\" \n(Matthew 10:34). The Revelation is full of references to the Son of Man \ncoming again in glory, though, and the orthodox creeds all mention some \nsort of second coming as Judge of the living and the dead.\n\n\nMatthew Weber\nCuratorial Assistant\nMusic Library\nUniversity of California, Berkeley\n\nHast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the \nsearch of the depth?\n The Holy Bible (The Old Testament): _The Book of Job_, chapter \n38, verse 16" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lisa Schaffer-Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-03-15T02:46:17+00:00", "subject": "Re: FW: (urth) Typhon, Sev, Silk", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " -----Original Message-----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nTo: Roy C. Lackey \nDate: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 2:49 PM\nSubject: FW: (urth) Typhon, Sev, Silk" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don (not Lisa) writes:\nFirst off, sorry for the double posts, I don't know what's going on \nwith that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hi.\n\nCurrently unable to post because of address stupidity, so replying\nin person. If you feel like responding to any of this on list feel\nfree.\n\nFirst a \"bravo!\" to your main thesis -- Sev as Typhon's son simply does\nnot work for precisely the thematic reasons you put forth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know what thematic reasons Roy put forth, but IMO there are \nplenty of thematic reasons for Sev to be Typhon's son. Aside from the \nHidden King theme, which occurs at least twice, thrice if you count KJ, \nthere is the Campbellian archetype of the Hero meeting his father who \nis unknown (?) to him (Darth Typhon), and there is the Gravesian \nZeus/Cronos seasonal sun king relationship that would be between the \ntwo if they are son and father. In addition (and I realize this is \nsomewhat circular) if Silk is Typhon (arguable) or possibly more likely \na close blood relation of Typhon, this is a plausible and thematically \nsatisfying reason for Silk and Sev to be brought together in Return to \nthe Whorl." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(I also\nwrote,\nbut could not post, a note on the question of just where Don believes\nall these clones are coming from -- Silk-as-a-clone-of-Typhon is of\ncourse an exception to this question -- but where are all these,\napparently\nfresh and viable, clones of Ymar coming from, a chiliad later, and how\ndid they get growed, e.g., who put the one that grew into Severian into\nKatherine's belly? Etc.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "These fresh and viable clones would be easy to come by via the \ncorridors of time. The woman in Jonas' story came from the stars. If \nYmar's journey to Yesod was anything like Sev's he did a fair share of \ntime travel himself. The embryo's came from Yesod as a part of the \nHiero's manipulation. My theory is that they spread the seeds far \nand wide, possibly across every generation. I knew this would be a \nhard sell, but I am firmly convinced of its correctness. I am glad at \nleast that you see my reasoning regarding Silk, whether you agree with \nit completely or not. I would add in reply to Roy that Typhon being \nthe baddest man in the galaxy actually furthers my thematic argument of \nhis redemption. Silk is arguably one of the best men in the galaxy. \nIf they are the same person then, in addition to it being highly ironic \n(almost reason enough on its own), it is also the ultimate expression \nof the power and the Grace (in the theological sense) of the Outsider. \nCompare that to the ham fisted approach of the hiero's in dealing with \nthe situation.\n\nAnother thing, I believe that the reason that Typhon did not use the \n\"possession\" technology in order to change bodies has two \npossibilities. First, there was no way for him to bring a clone \nquickly to age. (Inire could possibly do this with the khaibits, but \nthere is no indication that Typhon could). Another is that he planned \non using Silk as a puppet. Pas, after all is a program and most likely \nTyphon had the ability to override it. Pas, possesses Silk and acts as \na proxy for the Monarch until he establishes contact. Remember, Typhon \nwas beginning to believe he might never die. Besides, Typhon is most \nlikely more complex than Pas, so it would be an incomplete transfer." } ] } ] }