{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3900", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3900, "subject": "Typhon as Silk?", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "2003-03-15T08:32:53+00:00", "last": "2003-03-16T00:32:11+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2003-03-15T08:32:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon as Silk?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Don wrote:\nI would add in reply to Roy that Typhon being\nthe baddest man in the galaxy actually furthers my thematic argument of\nhis redemption. Silk is arguably one of the best men in the galaxy.\nIf they are the same person then, in addition to it being highly ironic\n(almost reason enough on its own), it is also the ultimate expression\nof the power and the Grace (in the theological sense) of the Outsider.\nCompare that to the ham fisted approach of the hiero's in dealing with\nthe situation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Unless you are willing to posit the Hierogrammates their own third-party\nagenda, were they not angelic agents of the Increate?\n\nAs for your \"thematic argument\" for the \"redemption\" of Typhon, even as an\nunbeliever I have a hard time swallowing that. Let's see: Typhon bankrupted\nUrth's remaining natural resources (mostly to massage his own ego); by some\naccounts he caused the wounding of the sun (leading to the passage of the\nNew Sun and the deaths of millions); he ordered the kidnapping of tens of\nthousands of people, brainwashed them and doomed generations of their\ndescendents to being his worshipful playthings on the _Whorl_; he\nslaughtered people wholesale (\"I watched him kill a thousand once. Men,\nmostly.\" -- Kypris, LS1:12). An omnipotent Increate/Outsider\npermitted/ordained all that suffering, balanced the cosmic scales on the\nbacks of the innocent, just to save the soul of one evil miscreant who never\ncontributed a dime's worth to his own salvation or was made to suffer in any\nway for the evil he had done? Is this the same Increate who kept Moses from\nthe Promised Land for the moral equivalent of a parking ticket?\n\nThen, on top of all that, Silk's soul is hijacked to sweeten the kitty.\nInstead of being a person unique in the Increate's Creation, Silk is\nsubordinated to Typhon. Typhon gets a second chance, through no merit of his\nown. If Typhon gets to Heaven riding Silk's coattails, where is the justice?\nIf Silk is a clone of Typhon, do clones have souls of their own? If so, how\ncan Typhon be redeemed by another's goodness?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2003-03-15T08:49:27+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Typhon as Silk?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am sorry, but this is reason, and divine charity knows nothing of reason.\n\nAs for Typhon doing all this - bankrupting the Earth, killing thousands,\nwounding the Sun - those called to be God's scourge have traditionally acted\nin this fashion.\n\nAnd so have some of God's principal servants (read the Old Testament).\n\nOften, the servant weilds a scourge.\n\nThe end of Typhon's evil is a significant good, at least within the\ngene-centered / volk-centered / reproductive-success-centered Old\nTestament scale of values - a tremendous expansion of the human territory\nand population - a new Promised Land.\n\nIt seems very much in the character of the Increate, to me, that Typhon\nshould be redeemed.\n\n hartshorn\n\n\n----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Roy C. Lackey\" \nTo: \"urth\" \nSent: Saturday, March 15, 2003 8:32 AM\nSubject: (urth) Typhon as Silk?\nDon wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I would add in reply to Roy that Typhon being\nthe baddest man in the galaxy actually furthers my thematic argument of\nhis redemption. Silk is arguably one of the best men in the galaxy.\nIf they are the same person then, in addition to it being highly ironic\n(almost reason enough on its own), it is also the ultimate expression\nof the power and the Grace (in the theological sense) of the Outsider.\nCompare that to the ham fisted approach of the hiero's in dealing with\nthe situation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Unless you are willing to posit the Hierogrammates their own third-party\nagenda, were they not angelic agents of the Increate?\n\nAs for your \"thematic argument\" for the \"redemption\" of Typhon, even as an\nunbeliever I have a hard time swallowing that. Let's see: Typhon\nbankrupted\nUrth's remaining natural resources (mostly to massage his own ego); by\nsome\naccounts he caused the wounding of the sun (leading to the passage of the\nNew Sun and the deaths of millions); he ordered the kidnapping of tens of\nthousands of people, brainwashed them" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lisa Schaffer-Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-03-16T00:32:11+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Typhon as Silk?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 12:32 AM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\n\nUnless you are willing to posit the Hierogrammates their own \nthird-party\nagenda, were they not angelic agents of the Increate?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Though we tend to disagree on most things involving this series Roy, I \nvalue your point of view and I'm constantly amazed that you anticipate \nthe stream of my arguments. This is exactly what I posit. I think the \nHiero's are cloaking themselves in the name of the Increate and that \ntheir guesses as to His (I use that guardedly) will are only slightly \nmore insightful than our own. After all, they are ultimately our \ncreations." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As for your \"thematic argument\" for the \"redemption\" of Typhon, even \nas an\nunbeliever I have a hard time swallowing that. Let's see: Typhon \nbankrupted\nUrth's remaining natural resources (mostly to massage his own ego); by \nsome\naccounts he caused the wounding of the sun (leading to the passage of \nthe\nNew Sun and the deaths of millions); he ordered the kidnapping of tens \nof\nthousands of people, brainwashed them and doomed generations of their\ndescendents to being his worshipful playthings on the _Whorl_; he\nslaughtered people wholesale (\"I watched him kill a thousand once. Men,\nmostly.\" -- Kypris, LS1:12). An omnipotent Increate/Outsider\npermitted/ordained all that suffering, balanced the cosmic scales on \nthe\nbacks of the innocent, just to save the soul of one evil miscreant who \nnever\ncontributed a dime's worth to his own salvation or was made to suffer \nin any\nway for the evil he had done? Is this the same Increate who kept Moses \nfrom\nthe Promised Land for the moral equivalent of a parking ticket?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hartshorn's reply is as good as anything I might have said. I would \nonly add that this mercy is the essence of Christian Grace. It is by \nits nature undeserved.\n\nDon" } ] } ] }