# Typhon as Silk? *The Urth list — 3 messages, 3 voices, 15 Mar 2003* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### Roy C. Lackey *15 Mar 2003, 08:32* > Don wrote: > I would add in reply to Roy that Typhon being > the baddest man in the galaxy actually furthers my thematic argument of > his redemption. Silk is arguably one of the best men in the galaxy. > If they are the same person then, in addition to it being highly ironic > (almost reason enough on its own), it is also the ultimate expression > of the power and the Grace (in the theological sense) of the Outsider. > Compare that to the ham fisted approach of the hiero's in dealing with > the situation. Unless you are willing to posit the Hierogrammates their own third-party agenda, were they not angelic agents of the Increate? As for your "thematic argument" for the "redemption" of Typhon, even as an unbeliever I have a hard time swallowing that. Let's see: Typhon bankrupted Urth's remaining natural resources (mostly to massage his own ego); by some accounts he caused the wounding of the sun (leading to the passage of the New Sun and the deaths of millions); he ordered the kidnapping of tens of thousands of people, brainwashed them and doomed generations of their descendents to being his worshipful playthings on the _Whorl_; he slaughtered people wholesale ("I watched him kill a thousand once. Men, mostly." -- Kypris, LS1:12). An omnipotent Increate/Outsider permitted/ordained all that suffering, balanced the cosmic scales on the backs of the innocent, just to save the soul of one evil miscreant who never contributed a dime's worth to his own salvation or was made to suffer in any way for the evil he had done? Is this the same Increate who kept Moses from the Promised Land for the moral equivalent of a parking ticket? Then, on top of all that, Silk's soul is hijacked to sweeten the kitty. Instead of being a person unique in the Increate's Creation, Silk is subordinated to Typhon. Typhon gets a second chance, through no merit of his own. If Typhon gets to Heaven riding Silk's coattails, where is the justice? If Silk is a clone of Typhon, do clones have souls of their own? If so, how can Typhon be redeemed by another's goodness? -Roy --- ### Andy Robertson *15 Mar 2003, 08:49 · follows Roy C. Lackey* I am sorry, but this is reason, and divine charity knows nothing of reason. As for Typhon doing all this - bankrupting the Earth, killing thousands, wounding the Sun - those called to be God's scourge have traditionally acted in this fashion. And so have some of God's principal servants (read the Old Testament). Often, the servant weilds a scourge. The end of Typhon's evil is a significant good, at least within the gene-centered / volk-centered / reproductive-success-centered Old Testament scale of values - a tremendous expansion of the human territory and population - a new Promised Land. It seems very much in the character of the Increate, to me, that Typhon should be redeemed. hartshorn ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Roy C. Lackey" > To: "urth" > Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2003 8:32 AM > Subject: (urth) Typhon as Silk? > Don wrote: >> I would add in reply to Roy that Typhon being >> the baddest man in the galaxy actually furthers my thematic argument of >> his redemption. Silk is arguably one of the best men in the galaxy. >> If they are the same person then, in addition to it being highly ironic >> (almost reason enough on its own), it is also the ultimate expression >> of the power and the Grace (in the theological sense) of the Outsider. >> Compare that to the ham fisted approach of the hiero's in dealing with >> the situation. > Unless you are willing to posit the Hierogrammates their own third-party > agenda, were they not angelic agents of the Increate? > > As for your "thematic argument" for the "redemption" of Typhon, even as an > unbeliever I have a hard time swallowing that. Let's see: Typhon > bankrupted > Urth's remaining natural resources (mostly to massage his own ego); by > some > accounts he caused the wounding of the sun (leading to the passage of the > New Sun and the deaths of millions); he ordered the kidnapping of tens of > thousands of people, brainwashed them --- ### Lisa Schaffer-Doggett *16 Mar 2003, 00:32 · follows Andy Robertson* > On Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 12:32 AM, Roy C. Lackey wrote: > > Unless you are willing to posit the Hierogrammates their own > third-party > agenda, were they not angelic agents of the Increate? Though we tend to disagree on most things involving this series Roy, I value your point of view and I'm constantly amazed that you anticipate the stream of my arguments. This is exactly what I posit. I think the Hiero's are cloaking themselves in the name of the Increate and that their guesses as to His (I use that guardedly) will are only slightly more insightful than our own. After all, they are ultimately our creations. > As for your "thematic argument" for the "redemption" of Typhon, even > as an > unbeliever I have a hard time swallowing that. Let's see: Typhon > bankrupted > Urth's remaining natural resources (mostly to massage his own ego); by > some > accounts he caused the wounding of the sun (leading to the passage of > the > New Sun and the deaths of millions); he ordered the kidnapping of tens > of > thousands of people, brainwashed them and doomed generations of their > descendents to being his worshipful playthings on the _Whorl_; he > slaughtered people wholesale ("I watched him kill a thousand once. Men, > mostly." -- Kypris, LS1:12). An omnipotent Increate/Outsider > permitted/ordained all that suffering, balanced the cosmic scales on > the > backs of the innocent, just to save the soul of one evil miscreant who > never > contributed a dime's worth to his own salvation or was made to suffer > in any > way for the evil he had done? Is this the same Increate who kept Moses > from > the Promised Land for the moral equivalent of a parking ticket? Hartshorn's reply is as good as anything I might have said. I would only add that this mercy is the essence of Christian Grace. It is by its nature undeserved. Don ---