{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3910", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3910, "subject": "Severian as New Sun(Brandon Mason)", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "2003-04-05T11:26:43+00:00", "last": "2003-04-06T00:46:42+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matt DeLuca", "address": "archdragon at wotmania.com" }, "date": "2003-04-05T11:26:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FW: Severian as New Sun(Brandon Mason)", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hey man, for some reason it won't let me join the Urth list, so I \nthought I would go ahead and forward this...maybe you can post it for me\n or something.\n\n\n\n\t1)What is the New Sun?\n\t \n\tI have only read the series twice, but I was always under the \ninterpretation that the New Sun is the NEW SUN itself ( that is, the old\n sun with the white fountain placed in it, thus making it new) and also \nit is Severian, who is called the New Sun because he brought it.\n\t \n\t2)What are his talents/abilities?\n\t \n\tWell, there are many that are listed within the text of Urth of the New\n Sun. I suppose some would say that he has the ability to be able to \nwork miracles. But I think that there are probably many more things \nthat Severian can do that are not listed within the text, using the \npower of the white fountain. I would go so far as to say that he \nprobably has the ability (whether he uses it or not) to be able to do \nanything that he wants.\n\t \n\t3)Is there any specific prophecy?\n\t \n\tHmmm...I don't have the text with me right now, but I don't think so. \nThe only prophecy that there may be about the New Sun or Conciliator is \nthe one that Severian would have spread on his own (about himself) in \nhis brief period of teaching in Urth of the New Sun (in the past.) I \nhave always assumed that he probably time traveled even more after the \ntelling of the tale in his memoirs and probably even after he wrote the \nmemoirs themselves. He does say somewhere in Urth of the New Sun after \nthe incident at the Chowder Pot that he thought he saw himself out in \nthe hall with the men that tried to restrain Zama. What I am getting at\n is I have a feeling that Severian might have went back into time and \nspread the word about himself so that people would know what to expect.\n\t \n\t4)What is the Claw?\n\t \n\tThe Claw of the Conciliator is the thorn that Severian picked up from \nthe rose bush when he was walking along the beach of Ocean. In Urth of \nthe Sun when he is sent back to Typhon's time after his capture he gives\n that same thorn from the rose bush to one of Typhon's soldiers. This \nthorn somehow ends up in the hands of the Pelerines, and is what \nSeverian later finds in the distant future when he crashes into their \ntemple and tries to return it to them.\n\t \n\t5)What is the New Sun supposed to do?\n\t \n\tThe New Sun as Severian or the New Sun as the New Sun itself? Severian\n is called the New Sun because he was the one to bring it, but if you \nare talking of the other meaning (the New Sun as the New Sun) it is \nsupposed to bring a cleansing to Urth and restore the old sun's light. \nI've always thought the prophecy about the New Sun is somewhat like the \nprophecy of Anakin in Star Wars Episode I and II, no one really knows if\n the coming of the New Sun will be good or bad.\n\t \n\t6)How does Severian do it?\n\t \n\tI know I might not be totally answering this question (as you might \nwant a specific) but in Urth of the Sun it is explained that Severian \nwill (mind the paraphrase) \"just know\" how to do it. Its something that\n is innate within him, and I believe that Tzadkiel placed the knowledge \nof how to bring the white fountain closer (or the ability to do so) in \nSeverian when he resurrected him as an eidolon. re-read the section in \nUrth of the Sun after Severian falls through the ship (and dies) and I \nthink that is where he gains the knowledge.\n\t \n\t7)What is the mystery of the guild?\n\t \n\tEXCELLENT QUESION...and one that I think we can only speculate to be \nable to find an answer to. After reading Urth of the Sun, (in which \nSeverian meets Ymar at the guild) I have always had an idea (and I am \nsure most will agree that it is not a good one) that it has something to\n do with the bringing up of Autarchs. Not Typhon, mind you, who is a \nmonarch, but the new generation of Autarchs that began with Ymar and \nended with Severian. Also, I have always thought that Severian himself \nmight have had something to do with the formation of the guild of \ntorturers (even though there is not a lot of textual evidence to support\n it.) I just thought it was interesting that when he became Apu Punchau\n in urth of the New Sun his people strangled him. Also, his mother is \nnamed Catherine correct? And the Holy Patron Saint for Order of Seekers\n of Truth and Penitence is Katharine. Other than that, the only secret \nthat I can remember within the text that Severian reveals is that, \"torturers\n OBEY.\"\n\t \n\t8)How can Severian use the Claw in books before Urth of the New Sun?\n\t \n\tI think it is explained in Urth of the New Sun that he is drawing off \nof future power (which is actually rooted in the past.)\n\t \n\t9)Any info on the Pancreator?\n\t \n\tAt the end of Urth of the Sun, Severian's friends the Heirodules \nexplain to him that who he calls the Pancreator (or maybe it is the \nIncreate, not sure,) they call \"God.\" So the Pancreator is God, right?\n I was always under the assumption (and I am probably wrong about this \nas well) that the Pancreator = God, the Conciliator is a Jesus figure, \nand the Increate represented the Holy Spirit.\n\n\n_____________________________________________________________\nhttp://wotmania.com\nfeed your wot addiction" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Geller", "address": "dclxvi at dclxvi.best.vwh.net" }, "date": "2003-04-05T11:58:00+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) FW: Severian as New Sun(Brandon Mason)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, 5 Apr 2003, Matt DeLuca wrote:\n\t1)What is the New Sun?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\tI have only read the series twice, but I was always under the\ninterpretation that the New Sun is the NEW SUN itself ( that is, the old\n sun with the white fountain placed in it, thus making it new) and also\nit is Severian, who is called the New Sun because he brought it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And it is a specific avatar, that is a specific human manifestation of\ncelestial forces." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\t2)What are his talents/abilities?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\tWell, there are many that are listed within the text of Urth of the New\n Sun. I suppose some would say that he has the ability to be able to\nwork miracles." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All of his miracles have to do with time and his peculiar relationship\nwith time.\n\n But I think that there are probably many more things" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "that Severian can do that are not listed within the text, using the\npower of the white fountain. I would go so far as to say that he\nprobably has the ability (whether he uses it or not) to be able to do\nanything that he wants." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It doesn't say that he does. Perhaps he can only do certain things at\ncertain times." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\t3)Is there any specific prophecy?\n\n\tHmmm...I don't have the text with me right now, but I don't think so.\nThe only prophecy that there may be about the New Sun or Conciliator is\nthe one that Severian would have spread on his own (about himself) in\nhis brief period of teaching in Urth of the New Sun (in the past.) I\nhave always assumed that he probably time traveled even more after the\ntelling of the tale in his memoirs and probably even after he wrote the\nmemoirs themselves. He does say somewhere in Urth of the New Sun after\nthe incident at the Chowder Pot that he thought he saw himself out in\nthe hall with the men that tried to restrain Zama. What I am getting at\n is I have a feeling that Severian might have went back into time and\nspread the word about himself so that people would know what to expect." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps. Or there might be different Severians from different time tracks,\nor something even more exotic." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\t4)What is the Claw?\n\n\tThe Claw of the Conciliator is the thorn that Severian picked up from\nthe rose bush when he was walking along the beach of Ocean. In Urth of\nthe Sun when he is sent back to Typhon's time after his capture he gives\n that same thorn from the rose bush to one of Typhon's soldiers. This\nthorn somehow ends up in the hands of the Pelerines, and is what\nSeverian later finds in the distant future when he crashes into their\ntemple and tries to return it to them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Technically speaking, the Claw is a relic of the Conciliator." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\t5)What is the New Sun supposed to do?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\tThe New Sun as Severian or the New Sun as the New Sun itself? Severian\n is called the New Sun because he was the one to bring it, but if you\nare talking of the other meaning (the New Sun as the New Sun) it is\nsupposed to bring a cleansing to Urth and restore the old sun's light." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or destroy the World, depending on your point of view." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've always thought the prophecy about the New Sun is somewhat like the\nprophecy of Anakin in Star Wars Episode I and II, no one really knows if\n the coming of the New Sun will be good or bad." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or like the prophecy or Christ in the Apokalypsis." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\t6)How does Severian do it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\tI know I might not be totally answering this question (as you might\nwant a specific) but in Urth of the Sun it is explained that Severian\nwill (mind the paraphrase) \"just know\" how to do it. Its something that\n is innate within him, and I believe that Tzadkiel placed the knowledge\nof how to bring the white fountain closer (or the ability to do so) in\nSeverian when he resurrected him as an eidolon. re-read the section in\nUrth of the Sun after Severian falls through the ship (and dies) and I\nthink that is where he gains the knowledge." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\t7)What is the mystery of the guild?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " [...] Severian reveals is that, \"torturers\n OBEY.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is how they justify spending their lives doing horrible things.\n\nI suppose it is also indicative/predictive of Severian's relationship with\nGod." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\t8)How can Severian use the Claw in books before Urth of the New Sun?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\tI think it is explained in Urth of the New Sun that he is drawing off\nof future power (which is actually rooted in the past.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The White Fountain is traveling towards the Old Sun even then." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\t9)Any info on the Pancreator?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\tAt the end of Urth of the Sun, Severian's friends the Heirodules\nexplain to him that who he calls the Pancreator (or maybe it is the\nIncreate, not sure,) they call \"God.\" So the Pancreator is God, right?\n I was always under the assumption (and I am probably wrong about this\nas well) that the Pancreator = God, the Conciliator is a Jesus figure,\nand the Increate represented the Holy Spirit." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Conciliator is a manifestation of the mystical Body of Christ, the\nother two the other two members of the Trinity.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Brandon Mason", "address": "suck_at_life at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2003-04-06T00:46:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FW: Severian as New Sun(Brandon Mason)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for posting my message Matt, after I sent that\ne-mail to you I managed to get registered with a\ndifferent e-mail account. And thanks for expanding on\nand clarifying my answers Josh." } ] } ] }