{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3916", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3916, "subject": "Seven American Nights", "messages": 6, "voices": 5, "first": "2003-04-09T02:14:26+00:00", "last": "2003-04-11T16:36:27+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Christopher Culver", "address": "christopher_culver at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2003-04-09T02:14:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seven American Nights", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I recently read \"Seven American Nights\" and think it is one of Wolfe's \nfinest - and most chilling - works. I've long been unhappy that Wolfe \nhas shown little interest in minority characters (and his black orderly \nin THERE ARE DOORS, quite the stereotype, makes me cringe), but I feel \nWolfe's use of an Iranian protagonist was sincere and accurate. Who \nknows, though, how different Nadan would be had Wolfe been writing two \nyears later after the Islamic Revolution when American bias against \nIran really took off. I also find ironic Wolfe's clever reversal of an \ninhabitant of a developing country coming to America for sex tourism \nand drug tourism instead of vice versa, as Wolfe could have observed in \nthe sixties and seventies when hippies were making escapes to \nAfghanistan and Goa.\n\nStill, I've got several questions about the novella:\n\n1) What caused the \"genetic damage\" in America? At one point Nadan \nmakes a reference to artificial hormones used to grow cattle more \nquickly, so I at first assumed that it was caused by food which \ntreatment unbeknowst to the population slowly caused damage, like mad \ncow disease today. But later on Ardis says the course of some rivers \nhas changed, which could be consistent with a thermonuclear attack. \nAlso, the Arab world is clearly superior in this novel, perhaps because \nEurope has been wiped out in a Cold War shootout, though apparently \nRome is still around.\n\n2) So, Ardis is the creature Nadan shot, right? But I don't understand \nwhy she wants to take him to the interior. It can't be she is one of \nthe mutants from the interior, since her normal parents live in \nWashington... unless she is pretending to be their daughter, or they \ntoo are mutants. Why would Ardis want to take him into the interior?\n\n3) The police are clearly conspiring against Nadan, so could the entire \npopulation be evil mutants like Ardis? But Nadan doesn't say there was \nanything abnormal about the three prostitutes who came to his hotel \nroom.\n\n4) What is the secret under Mt. Rushmore? Could it be the command \ncenter of the current government, as South Dakota is remote and barren \nenough to escape a nuclear strike?\n\n5) Whence the two plays mentioned in the novella? \"Mary Rose\" was \nclearly originally \"Rosemary\" in tribute to Wolfe's wife, but is it or \nthe \"Small Planet\" play obviously based on any real work of literature?\n\nI find SAN's very prototypical of The Book of the New Sun and Wolfe's \nother works of the 1980's. The tone of narration seems similar to that \nof Severian, and the protagonist's shooting of a person he later sleeps \nwith is like Severian the Autarch's attack against Gunnie in the dark. \nThe possibility that the entire plot comes from the ravings of a (in \nthis case drug-inspired) lunatic is like THERE ARE DOORS.\n\nChristopher Culver " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2003-04-09T18:59:56+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Seven American Nights", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Christopher Culver\" \nTo: \nSent: Wednesday, April 09, 2003 3:14 AM\nSubject: (urth) Seven American Nights\nI recently read \"Seven American Nights\" and think it is one of Wolfe's\nfinest - and most chilling - works. I've long been unhappy that Wolfe\nhas shown little interest in minority characters (and his black orderly\nin THERE ARE DOORS, quite the stereotype, makes me cringe)," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Odd. Wolfe is quite honest about the importance of race in human\nbehaviour. I mentioned that passage to an e-friend who had been in a mental\ninsitution staffed by blacks, and he told me this was entirely typical\nbehaviour for the black orderlies. The violence was in fact far worse\nthan this, and it was specifically, aggressively, racial in nature\n\nFor another literary treatment of this type of racial bullying read ONE FLEW\nOVER THE CUCKOO'S NEST\n\n\n hartshorn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "2003-04-09T19:19:54+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Seven American Nights", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Both are real plays: \"Mary Rose\" by J. M. Barrie (1920) and \"Visit to a \nSmall Planet\" by Gore Vidal (1957). I had to read \"Planet\" in High School, \nso I knew it was a real play and automatically assumed the other one was, \ntoo. But I think you have put your finger on the reason Wolfe was familiar \nwith \"Mary Rose\" and decided to use it in SAN (aka 7AN)." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "William Ansley\n\nAt 04:14 AM 4/9/2003 +0200, you wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "5) Whence the two plays mentioned in the novella? \"Mary Rose\" was clearly \noriginally \"Rosemary\" in tribute to Wolfe's wife, but is it or the \"Small \nPlanet\" play obviously based on any real work of literature?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "2003-04-10T16:36:56+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Seven American Nights", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[I am posting this for Dan'l. -William Ansley]\n\nStill unable to post to the list. Grrrr." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Both are real plays: \"Mary Rose\" by J. M. Barrie (1920) and\n\"Visit to a Small Planet\" by Gore Vidal (1957). I had to read\n\"Planet\" in High School, so I knew it was a real play and\nautomatically assumed the other one was, too. But I think you\nhave put your finger on the reason Wolfe was familiar\nwith \"Mary Rose\" and decided to use it in SAN (aka 7AN)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That may well be part of it, but he might have known about it\nfor other reasons -- we know he's a fan of at least one other\nwork of J.M. Barrie's (\"Peter Pan\"), after all.\n\n--Dan'l" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "alex_groce at forlesen.modck.cs.cmu.edu" }, "date": "2003-04-11T06:30:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seven American Nights", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Both are real plays: \"Mary Rose\" by J. M. Barrie (1920) and \"Visit\nto a Small Planet\" by Gore Vidal (1957). I had to read \"Planet\" in\nHigh School, so I knew it was a real play and automatically assumed\nthe other one was, too. But I think you have put your finger on the\nreason Wolfe was familiar with \"Mary Rose\" and decided to use it in\nSAN (aka 7AN)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If I recall, Vidal's \"Visit to a Small Planet\" isn't quite the play\nthat's in the story. I think \"Mary Rose\" on the other hand, doesn't\nseem changed. Can anyone confirm my memory that the Vidal play is\nchanged?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.\" John 8:32\n--\nAlex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)\nPh.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department\n8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066\nhttp://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "StoneOx17", "address": "stoneox17 at aol.com" }, "date": "2003-04-11T16:36:27+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Seven American Nights", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I just got around to catching up on the Urth list, and I saw the questions \nabout Seven American Nights. Nobody's answered many of them yet, \nso here are my answers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "1) What caused the \"genetic damage\" in America? At one point \nNadan makes a reference to artificial hormones used to grow cattle \nmore quickly, so I at first assumed that it was caused by food which\ntreatment unbeknowst to the population slowly caused damage, \nlike mad cow disease today." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gene Wolfe used to be an engineer working in the food industry. With \nthis connection, the reference to the cattle hormones, and Nadan's \ndream of the never-staling bread (which Robert Borski likens to a \ncorrupted version of the Eucharist in an interesting set of posts that \nappeared here a while ago), I am convinced that food additives are to \nblame.\n\n(and quoting out of order)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I also find ironic Wolfe's clever reversal of an inhabitant of a developing \ncountry coming to America for sex tourism and drug tourism instead \nof vice versa, as Wolfe could have observed in the sixties and seventies \nwhen hippies were making escapes to Afghanistan and Goa." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, the Arab world is clearly superior in this novel, perhaps because \nEurope has been wiped out in a Cold War shootout, though apparently \nRome is still around." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nadan may be from Iran because of Wolfe's inspiration from Montesquieu's \n\"Persian Letters,\" a book from I have read only the four \"troglodyte\" \nletters {because of their connection to \"Peace\"). \"Persian Letters\" has a \nset-up similar to Seven American Nights, with a Persian tourist visiting and \ncommenting on early 18th Century France." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2) So, Ardis is the creature Nadan shot, right? But I don't understand \nwhy she wants to take him to the interior. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My take is that Ardis and Kreton (her lover) have a \"business\" that involves\ntaking rich tourists to the interior, robbing and killing them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "3) The police are clearly conspiring against Nadan, so could the entire \npopulation be evil mutants like Ardis? But Nadan doesn't say there was \nanything abnormal about the three prostitutes who came to his hotel room." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Borski's theory, which I subscribe to, is that it wasn't the police who \nsearched \nNadan's hotel room, but one of the actors (I forget his name, but the one \nthat \ndidn't show up that night) conspiring with Ardis and Kreton. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "4) What is the secret under Mt. Rushmore? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is there one? I've been assuming that was just a rumor, but I can't really\nsay.\n\nBorski's posts are definitely worth looking up. I'm not sure I agree with \neverything he says, but I'm convinced he has identified the missing\nnight.\n\nhttp://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0205/871.txt.shtml\nhttp://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0205/889.txt.shtml\nhttp://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0205/922.txt.shtml\n\nStone Ox" } ] } ] }