{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3919", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3919, "subject": "Being and pretending", "messages": 4, "voices": 3, "first": "2003-04-10T13:05:07+00:00", "last": "2003-04-10T18:35:56+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nigel Price", "address": "nigel.aprice at virgin.net" }, "date": "2003-04-10T13:05:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Being and pretending", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks to Matt DeLuca for raising the question of favourite quotations. It's\na good idea, though not one I find easy to respond to. This is partly\nbecause of my poor memory for this sort of thing, and partly because the\ngeneral standard of Wolfe's writing is so consistently high. Some writers\ncome up with the occasional memorable phrase, and it stands out from the\nsurrounding text. With Wolfe, a passage has to be really exceptional to\nstand out in that way.\n\nI was interested, though, by the lines which Steve Case cited from \"On\nBlue's Waters\" as being among his favourite Lupine quotations:\n\n\t\"If I need more courage than I have to live, I will pretend to have it and\nlive anyway. I did that on the battlefield . . . I acted the part of a\nhero. That is to say, I acted as it seemed to me I would have if I had\nactually possessed dauntless courage.\"\n\nI have been rereading TIoDD&OS&OS recently and was interested in the\nsimilarity betweent the above quotation and the following speech from \"The\nDeath of Dr. Island\". Nicholas is talking to Diane about the pros and cons\nof taking medication for their respective psychological problems and stating\nhis preference for carrying out disruptive behaviour whether or not is given\nany therapeutic drugs:\n\n\t\"Not doing it doesn't do any good either-I mean, we're both here. My way, I\nknow I've made them jump; they shoot that stuff in me and I'm not mad any\nmore, but I know what it is and I just think what I would do if I _were_\nmad, and I do it, and when it wears off I'm glad I did.\"\n(p97 of the Arrow pbk edn of TIoDD&OS&OS)\n\nThe use of the word \"mad\" is interesting here, because in this context it\nseems to combine both the traditional sense of \"insane\" and the contemporary\nAmerican usage where it means \"angry\". Just as the narrator in Steve's\nquotation is brave because he acts the part of a brave man, so Nicholas is\nmad because he acts the part of a madman.\n\nWhat can we deduce from this about Wolfe's understanding of psychology and\nvirtue? That it is the will that is paramount, that we can choose to be\nvirtuous or wicked? Or that the nature of our will, whether virtuous or\ncorrupt, will be shown by the choices that we make? In either story, there\ndoesn't seem to be any practical difference between the person who does\nthings, whether good or bad, instinctively, and the person who does them as\nan act of choice and will. Or is there? Is the person who chooses in this\nway actually braver (or madder) than the person who acts from simple\ninstinct?\n\nPerhaps there is no difference from the point of view of the observer, but\nall the difference in the world for the person themselves, and, therefore,\nfor God too.\n\nNigel" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2003-04-10T14:33:46+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Being and pretending", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nigel pondered the following quotations:\n\"If I need more courage than I have to live, I will pretend to have it and\nlive anyway. I did that on the battlefield . . . I acted the part of a\nhero. That is to say, I acted as it seemed to me I would have if I had\nactually possessed dauntless courage.\"\n -- On Blue Waters\n\n\"Not doing it doesn't do any good either-I mean, we're both here. My way, I\nknow I've made them jump; they shoot that stuff in me and I'm not mad any\nmore, but I know what it is and I just think what I would do if I *were*\nmad, and I do it, and when it wears off I'm glad I did.\"\n-- The Death of Dr. Island\n\n....and Nigel speculates:\nJust as the narrator in [the first] quotation is brave because he acts the\npart of a brave man, so [in the second quotation, the speaker] is mad\nbecause he acts the part of a madman. What can we deduce from this about\nWolfe's understanding of psychology and virtue?\n\n...Perhaps there is no difference from the point of view of the observer,\nbut all the difference in the world for the person themselves, and,\ntherefore, for God too.\n\n\nCrush continues:\nIn the same vein, what is Wolfe's belief about psychology and identity and\ngodliness? As he writes in 'The Book of the Long Sun\":\n\"\"When a demon mimics a god, it can not help in some ways becoming like a\ngod.\"\n\n--- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Terry Lago", "address": "tlago at chass.utoronto.ca" }, "date": "2003-04-10T15:20:41+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Being and pretending", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: James Wynn [mailto:crushtv at hotpop.com] \nSent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 10:34 AM\nTo: urth at urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Being and pretending\n\nNigel pondered the following quotations:\n\"If I need more courage than I have to live, I will pretend to have it and\nlive anyway. I did that on the battlefield . . . I acted the part of a\nhero. That is to say, I acted as it seemed to me I would have if I had\nactually possessed dauntless courage.\"\n -- On Blue Waters\n\n\"Not doing it doesn't do any good either-I mean, we're both here. My way, I\nknow I've made them jump; they shoot that stuff in me and I'm not mad any\nmore, but I know what it is and I just think what I would do if I *were*\nmad, and I do it, and when it wears off I'm glad I did.\"\n-- The Death of Dr. Island\n\n....and Nigel speculates:\nJust as the narrator in [the first] quotation is brave because he acts the\npart of a brave man, so [in the second quotation, the speaker] is mad\nbecause he acts the part of a madman. What can we deduce from this about\nWolfe's understanding of psychology and virtue?\n\n...Perhaps there is no difference from the point of view of the observer,\nbut all the difference in the world for the person themselves, and,\ntherefore, for God too.\n\n\nCrush continues:\nIn the same vein, what is Wolfe's belief about psychology and identity and\ngodliness? As he writes in 'The Book of the Long Sun\":\n\"\"When a demon mimics a god, it can not help in some ways becoming like a\ngod.\"\n\n--- Crush\n\nI'd say that the Inhumi provide a telling example of Wolfe's POV on this\nissue. The fact that they, in some sense, become what they mimic (especially\nones like Silk-Horn's 'son' and 'daughter') and that Silk-Horn notes how\nhumans should be as good as they can in order to ensure that the Inhumi take\non these good traits (can't give the exact quote, sorry) seems to imply that\n*acting* in a certain way is at least as important as actually *being* that\nway. In fact I'd say that the one predicates the other. This seems very much\nto me like the Catholic idea of the habit of virtue...it may not always be\ninnate in a person, but the more it is practiced as a habit the more it\nbecomes a 'true' part of one's character.\n\nT." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nigel Price", "address": "nigel.aprice at virgin.net" }, "date": "2003-04-10T18:35:56+00:00", "subject": "FW: (urth) Being and pretending", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For some reason, our wise friend Blattid is having difficulty posting his\nmessages to the list. I forward here his response to one of my recent\ncontributions.\n\nNigel\n\n-----------------------------------------------------------------\n\nNigel,\n\nStill (Aaaargh!) unable to post so replying in person. Feel free\nto repost to the list if you want to reply." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I was interested, though, by the lines which Steve Case cited\nfrom \"On Blue's Waters\" as being among his favourite Lupine\nquotations:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\t\"If I need more courage than I have to live, I will pretend\nto have it and live anyway. I did that on the battlefield . . .\nI acted the part of a hero. That is to say, I acted as it seemed\nto me I would have if I had actually possessed dauntless courage.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Without dismissing the correspondence you note below (and which\nI will reply to), this speech describes the common Christian\npractice of \"assuming the virtue.\" In other words, we are not\nperfect in any of the virtues proper to the Christian life, but\nwe pretend we are, and act as if we are, and eventually this\nbehavior becomes habit. Some have even suggested that there is\nmore virtue in acting as if you have a virtue which is not native\nto you -- for example, it takes more courage to act bravely when\nyou are afraid then when you are not." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have been rereading TIoDD&OS&OS recently and was interested\nin the similarity betweent the above quotation and the following\nspeech from \"The Death of Dr. Island\". Nicholas is talking to\nDiane about the pros and cons of taking medication for their\nrespective psychological problems and stating his preference for\ncarrying out disruptive behaviour whether or not is given any\ntherapeutic drugs:\n\n\"Not doing it doesn't do any good either-I mean, we're both\nhere. My way, I know I've made them jump; they shoot that stuff\nin me and I'm not mad any more, but I know what it is and I just\nthink what I would do if I _were_ mad, and I do it, and when it\nwears off I'm glad I did.\" (p97 of the Arrow pbk edn of\nTIoDD&OS&OS)\n\nThe use of the word \"mad\" is interesting here, because in this\ncontext it seems to combine both the traditional sense of \"insane\"\nand the contemporary American usage where it means \"angry\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(A favorite non-Lupine quote: \"I'm not mad. I get mad, but I'm\nnot mad.\" The speaker is Troy Grenzer, a particularly vicious\nserial killer, in Peter Milligan's comic SHADE THE CHANGING MAN.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Just as the narrator in Steve's quotation is brave because he\nacts the part of a brave man, so Nicholas is mad because he acts\nthe part of a madman.\n\nWhat can we deduce from this about Wolfe's understanding of\npsychology and virtue? That it is the will that is paramount,\nthat we can choose to be virtuous or wicked? Or that the nature\nof our will, whether virtuous or corrupt, will be shown by the\nchoices that we make?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is indeed a recurring and very important theme in Wolfe. As\nnoted above, it takes the positive form of \"assuming the virtue.\"\nIt has a well-known negative form, also, which I don't think\nWolfe has ever stated explicitly -- but then, does he ever state\nany of his themes explicitly? -- but which Vonnegut has devoted\nat least two books to, MOTHER NIGHT and CAT'S CRADLE. In these\nbooks, he formulates the negative theme in variations of this\nstatement: \"We need to be very careful what we pretend to be,\nbecause we may find out we've become it.\"\n\nThe theme is implied over and over again in Wolfe's books, but\nespecially in the LONG/SHORT SUN series. Demons who pretend to\nbe gods become those gods. \"Gods\" of mainframe, and especially\nKindly Kypris, tend to become (aspects of) the Outsider. Horn\npretending to be Silk turns out to be Silk pretending to be\nHorn. Inhumi who pretend to be humans tend to become humans\n(at least to the extent of having human souls). Et ceteRA,\net ceteRA.\n\n(Again, as so often, 5HC turns out to be a \"practice run\" or\n\"prelude\" for the SUN books, as the whole question of who is\nand isn't an abo turns out to be an early variation on this\ntheme. But it runs all through Wolfe's work.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In either story, there doesn't seem to be any practical\ndifference between the person who does things, whether\ngood or bad, instinctively, and the person who does them\nas an act of choice and will. Or is there? Is the person\nwho chooses in this way actually braver (or madder) than\nthe person who acts from simple instinct?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The question of free will is, of course, another of Wolfe's\nongoing themes, one which Silk states rather profoundly in\none of the LONG books. I can't quote it exactly from memory,\nbut it's something to the effect that \"Perhaps free will is\nnothing more than the dignity of being permitted to cooperate\nvoluntarily with what's going to happen anyway.\"\n\nDepending on your point of view (or existential \"fundamental\nchoice\"), this is either a brilliantly happy or a miserably\ndespairing statement; in either case, it's a pretty _accurate_\nstatement of the situation of our \"free\" will-in-Time as over\nagainst God's \"fore\" knowledge-in-Eternity (at least as best\nas I can understand the matter)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps there is no difference from the point of view of\nthe observer, but all the difference in the world for the\nperson themselves, and, therefore, for God too." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, but again, it's important to distinguish our in-Time\nunderstanding, where moments are serial and the future has\nnot yet happened, from God's in-Eternity view, where all\nmoments are equally present and our free choices have all\nalways-already been made." } ] } ] }